Climate change is upon us....

[Sriram]

This is probably the only subject that needs to be discussed with any degree of urgency. Catastrophe is now imminent and nothing else really matters.

I don't think anything we do now can possibly reverse the trend.

Unfortunately it is human self importance, greed and illusion of control that is responsible for this situation. Science and technology have been misused. 

[Aruntraveller]

Science and technology have been misused. 

Or religion, you know:


As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect that if there is a way out of this, the only real chance is some technological development.

[torridon]

Nuclear fusion might be the saviour we need, but we just aren't quite there yet, and probably won't achieve it in the timescales we have. The last IPCC report talked about a window of 12 years to reduce emissions before 2C gets locked in, but it will probably be 15 years before fusion starts to come on stream.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/09/nuclear-fusion-on-brink-of-being-realised-say-mit-scientists

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile what seem to me fairly pointless targets for zero emissions are argued to be too aggressive! Instead of 6 govts down the line we should be talking about it being done by the end of the next one. And yes, that is aggressive, and we may not meet it but it's in better line with the needs. After all when Kennedy talked of putting man on the moon he didn't say by the end of the 80s.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/cutting-uk-emissions-to-net-zero-would-cost-%c2%a31tn-says-hammond/ar-AACtJzk

[torridon]

and meanwhile the govt proposes to have us all driving electric cars, seemingly quite obliviously to the fact that there is nowhere near enough cobalt and lithium on the planet to convert all vehicles to run on batteries.

And it doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone in power that these scarce resources are being squandered on trivial uses.  if we are serious about electric vehicles we need to be thinking about banning a plethora of battery powered devices :

http://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2019/04/11/jevons-paradox-is-alive-well-and-in-my-local-diy-store/   

[Udayana]

It seems obvious to me that much could be done to avert collapse and catastrophe. Technology could help but the fundamental obstacles are political and economic.

So it goes. 

...
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Those ideas were probably fine in 1000 BCE just no use now, from where we are.

[Nearly Sane]

It seems obvious to me that much could be done to avert collapse and catastrophe. Technology could help but the fundamental obstacles are political and economic.

So it goes. 

Those ideas were probably fine in 1000 BCE just no use now, from where we are.

I don't disagree but even if we get the political will it will still need a technological solution. Not sure there is a real economic issue, that is different from the political.

[Sriram]

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736

***********

Do you remember the good old days when we had "12 years to save the planet"?

Now it seems, there's a growing consensus that the next 18 months will be critical in dealing with the global heating crisis, among other environmental challenges.

Last year, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reported that to keep the rise in global temperatures below 1.5C this century, emissions of carbon dioxide would have to be cut by 45% by 2030.

But today, observers recognise that the decisive, political steps to enable the cuts in carbon to take place will have to happen before the end of next year.

***********

[Nearly Sane]

Things that aren't going to happen -  'decisive, political steps to enable the cuts in carbon'.

[Sriram]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/watch-greenland-ice-sheet-turns-into-10-billion-tonnes-of-water-in-hours-2079180?pfrom=home-topstories

*************

An extraordinary melt event that began earlier this week continues on Thursday on the Greenland ice sheet, and there are signs that about 60% of the expansive ice cover has seen detectable surface melting, including at higher elevations that only rarely see temperatures climb above freezing.

July 31 was the biggest melt day since at least 2012, with about 60% of the ice sheet seeing at least 1 millimeter of melt at the surface, and more than 10 billion tons of ice lost to the ocean from surface melt, according to data from the Polar Portal, a website run by Danish polar research institutions, and the National Snow and Ice Data Center. Thursday could be another significant melt day,.....

"Like 2012, this melt event reached the highest elevations of the ice sheet, which is highly unusual," says Thomas Mote,

Studies have shown that ice melt periods like the one seen in 2012 typically occur about every 250 years, so the fact that another one is taking place only a few years later could be a sign of how climate change is upping the odds of such events.

*************

 

[Alan Burns]

I am reminded of this passage from Mark 4 37:40 -

A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped.  Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

There is evidence that the sun is cooling slightly.
https://www.livescience.com/61716-sun-cooling-global-warming.html
I put my faith in the power of the Creator to help counter the follies of mankind.

[Sriram]

Alan.....I am a believer in God too...but a very different kind of 'God'.

If Jesus could stop wind and rain....why couldn't he stop his own crucifixion?  All the persecution of Christians, crucifixions and beheadings that followed later. All the centuries of wars and battles.

The answer could be that it is all God's Will and his higher wisdom that we cannot understand. Maybe so. In that case, it could be God's will that  Climate Change should happen, sea levels should rise and many should perish.

As far as God is concerned, death and destruction do not seem to be major events at all (unlike for us).   All a natural part of life's cycle.

[torridon]

I am reminded of this passage from Mark 4 37:40 -

A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped.  Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

There is evidence that the sun is cooling slightly.
https://www.livescience.com/61716-sun-cooling-global-warming.html
I put my faith in the power of the Creator to help counter the follies of mankind.

The 'furious squall' was of course a natural event for which the fishermen of the story bore no responsibility.  The current heating of the planet and the evisceration of much of the natural world that lies beneath and supports human civilisation is a mess of our own making and it is us who need to fix it.

A slight diminution in long term solar output will not save us from our folly. Indeed we are currently at a low point in the Sun's more well known eleven year cycle but you'd hardly guess that to be the case given that the last four years have been the hottest since instrumental records began. The article linked makes that clear, a long term diminution at best might reduce global mean temperatures by around 0.5C for some of this century after which the normal levels of solar output would return.

It is our shortsightedness and blindness to science that has allowed this problem to grow until it is now almost beyond any political will we can muster. Jesus isn't going to come back and save us from our folly, such fantasy thinking is at the extreme end of the human stupidity spectrum.  Denial of reality has gotten us into this mess and more of the same will not get us out.

[Stranger]

I am reminded of this passage from Mark 4 37:40 -

A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped.  Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

There is evidence that the sun is cooling slightly.
https://www.livescience.com/61716-sun-cooling-global-warming.html
I put my faith in the power of the Creator to help counter the follies of mankind.

Jaw-dropping. When it comes to natural disasters and terrible diseases that kill innocent children, the religionists make up all sorts of silly reasons why it isn't god's fault, but as soon as anything is perceived as being positive, that's equally out of human hands, then it's "goddidit!"

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad to see human minds so crippled by irrational faith...
 

[Alan Burns]

Alan.....I am a believer in God too...but a very different kind of 'God'.

If Jesus could stop wind and rain....why couldn't he stop his own crucifixion?  All the persecution of Christians, crucifixions and beheadings that followed later. All the centuries of wars and battles.

The answer could be that it is all God's Will and his higher wisdom that we cannot understand. Maybe so. In that case, it could be God's will that  Climate Change should happen, sea levels should rise and many should perish.

As far as God is concerned, death and destruction do not seem to be major events at all (unlike for us).   All a natural part of life's cycle.

Faith is the key to dealing with such problems.
As aptly recorded by Julian of Norwich amid the turmoil of the 14th century:

In her thirteenth showing, Julian receives a comforting answer to a question that has long troubled her:
“In my folly, before this time I often wondered why, by the great foreseeing wisdom of God, the onset of sin was not prevented: for then, I thought, all should have been well. This impulse [of thought] was much to be avoided, but nevertheless I mourned and sorrowed because of it, without reason and discretion.
“But Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that is needed by me, answered with these words and said: ‘It was necessary that there should be sin; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.'

(from Revelations of Divine Love)

[Sriram]

Alan,

In the context of personal anxieties and emotional issues, faith can be very useful.  I know that.  But that is not what we are talking about in this thread.

In the context of Climate change how do you think personal faith is going to help?

[Alan Burns]

Alan,

In the context of personal anxieties and emotional issues, faith can be very useful.  I know that.  But that is not what we are talking about in this thread.

In the context of Climate change how do you think personal faith is going to help?

Jesus clearly states in the Gospel records that He found it difficult to work miracles amongst people who had little faith.  Faith is the key which unlocks God's miraculous power.  My own personal experiences of putting my faith and trust in God has indeed produced results far beyond my expectations.  Sometimes the answers come through other people.  Sometimes it can be seen as divine intervention.  If climate change does bring about catastrophe, I will have to ponder what would have happened if more people had faith in God.

“Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”  Mark 4:40

[Sriram]

A vast majority of the people in this world believe in God....maybe not in Jesus.  Since God is one anyway...it should not matter by what name he is addressed. Which means that a majority do have faith in Him.

But we know that all events are decided by earlier events and/or through external intervention (what scientists call random). Which means that God is deciding all events however good or bad they may appear to us....climate change included.     

[torridon]

Faith is the key to dealing with such problems.

So tell us how faith is going to remove excess carbon dioxide from the atmosphere within the necessary timeframe.

[Stranger]

A vast majority of the people in this world believe in God...

No, they do not. People believe in all sorts of different and incompatible gods. Whichever god(s) you believe in, most people in the world think you are wrong.

...maybe not in Jesus.  Since God is one anyway...it should not matter by what name he is addressed. Which means that a majority do have faith in Him.

Unmitigated drivel. It's not a matter of names, the gods people believe in are different concepts.

But we know that all events are decided by earlier events and/or through external intervention (what scientists call random).

 

[Gordon]

Jesus clearly states in the Gospel records that He found it difficult to work miracles amongst people who had little faith.  Faith is the key which unlocks God's miraculous power.

So, all in all, 'miracles' work best when the intended audience are already biased in favour of the notion of 'miracles' and are credulous enough to buy into the 'miracle' narrative offered - the so-called 'Miracle of the Sun' in Portugal in 1917 being an example.

My own personal experiences of putting my faith and trust in God has indeed produced results far beyond my expectations.  Sometimes the answers come through other people.  Sometimes it can be seen as divine intervention.  If climate change does bring about catastrophe, I will have to ponder what would have happened if more people had faith in God.

Perhaps if 'God' were to intervene, such as by announcing it would reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere by a specified amount in less than hour on a specific date, and then it does so, which can easily be checked, there would be grounds to take 'God' seriously - until then! 

[Roses]

Jesus clearly states in the Gospel records that He found it difficult to work miracles amongst people who had little faith.  Faith is the key which unlocks God's miraculous power.  My own personal experiences of putting my faith and trust in God has indeed produced results far beyond my expectations.  Sometimes the answers come through other people.  Sometimes it can be seen as divine intervention.  If climate change does bring about catastrophe, I will have to ponder what would have happened if more people had faith in God.

“Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”  Mark 4:40

What on earth has religion got to do with climate change, a manmade creation?

[Alan Burns]

So tell us how faith is going to remove excess carbon dioxide from the atmosphere within the necessary timeframe.

God's will can intervene in many ways - as can human will.

Despite valiant efforts which can be seen to be too little too late, human folly continues to dominate and produce ever increasing pollution.

It will indeed take a miracle to save this precious planet.

So let us pray …

[Stranger]

So let us pray …

Alternatively, we do something that might actually help, like listen to, and act on the science.