Climate change is upon us....

[Sriram]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/11/us/arctic-rapid-warming-climate/index.html

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As sea ice vanishes, Greenland melts and wildfires scorch the planet's northernmost forests, new research confirms what scientists are sounding alarms about: the Arctic has warmed much faster than the rest of the world in the past several decades.

The phenomenon, called Arctic amplification, is caused by the heat-trapping emissions from burning fossil fuels. The pace of the temperature increase around the North Pole in recent decades was four times higher than the rest of the planet, researchers at the Finnish Meteorological Institute found in a study published Thursday.

Another problem: Climate models, which scientists used to predict long-term change, are not capturing this high rate of warming, lead author and researcher Mika Rantanen told CNN, which was part of this study's motivation. That's concerning because if the models can't recreate what's happening right now, scientists can't be confident in their long-term predictions.

**************

[SteveH]

This is from Yahoo, and is one of a series of photos illustrating the seriousness of the current drought, but this photo is misleading. The upper Ver, a few miles from me, is a Winterbourne which means it normally dries up in the summer. It would only have water in it at this time of year in an unusually wet summer.

[Alan Burns]

The current wave of protestors/activists would do better to get down on their knees and pray for Russia, China, India and the US to be motivated to do whatever is needed to avert the oncoming catastrophe.  Without these major polluters on board any efforts made by our own country will be insignificant.

[torridon]

The current wave of protestors/activists would do better to get down on their knees and pray for Russia, China, India and the US to be motivated to do whatever is needed to avert the oncoming catastrophe.  Without these major polluters on board any efforts made by our own country will be insignificant.

Prayer isn't going to help, it is action that is required.

[Alan Burns]

Prayer isn't going to help, it is action that is required.

Through prayer, God can motivate people into action.
In my 70+ years on this earth, one thing I have learnt is:

Never underestimate the power of prayer

[Nearly Sane]

Through prayer, God can motivate people into action.
In my 70+ years on this earth, one thing I have learnt is:

Never underestimate the power of prayer

Bold and 18pt too!

ETA: so if prayer is powerful and you and others have been prayering away over your 70+ years, it would be logical to think the world is much better now than ever. Do you think that? If not why not?

[Alan Burns]

Bold and 18pt too!

ETA: so if prayer is powerful and you and others have been prayering away over your 70+ years, it would be logical to think the world is much better now than ever. Do you think that? If not why not?

This world is certainly a better place than it would have been without these extraordinary answers to prayer:

Saving Europe from being conquered by the forces of Ottoman empire against all the odds.
https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

The King's call for our nation to pray for a miraculous saving of the British army at Dunkirk.
https://www.goli.org.uk/post/80th-anniversary-of-the-nation-being-called-to-prayer

The Pope's intervention which helped save us from a nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/preventing-war-pope-john-xxiii-and-the-cuban-missile-crisis

And Christians all over the world have been praying for Ukraine to avoid being conquered by the might of the Russian army.

Yes, the world is a better place due to answers to prayer, but I am sure it would be a much better place if more people prayed for deliverance from the evils of this world.

[Aruntraveller]

This world is certainly a better place than it would have been without these extraordinary answers to prayer:

Saving Europe from being conquered by the forces of Ottoman empire against all the odds.
https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

The King's call for our nation to pray for a miraculous saving of the British army at Dunkirk.
https://www.goli.org.uk/post/80th-anniversary-of-the-nation-being-called-to-prayer

The Pope's intervention which helped save us from a nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/preventing-war-pope-john-xxiii-and-the-cuban-missile-crisis

And Christians all over the world have been praying for Ukraine to avoid being conquered by the might of the Russian army.

Yes, the world is a better place due to answers to prayer, but I am sure it would be a much better place if more people prayed for deliverance from the evils of this world.

The three C's.

Causation Correlation Confusion.

[Nearly Sane]

This world is certainly a better place than it would have been without these extraordinary answers to prayer:

Saving Europe from being conquered by the forces of Ottoman empire against all the odds.
https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

The King's call for our nation to pray for a miraculous saving of the British army at Dunkirk.
https://www.goli.org.uk/post/80th-anniversary-of-the-nation-being-called-to-prayer

The Pope's intervention which helped save us from a nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/preventing-war-pope-john-xxiii-and-the-cuban-missile-crisis

And Christians all over the world have been praying for Ukraine to avoid being conquered by the might of the Russian army.

Yes, the world is a better place due to answers to prayer, but I am sure it would be a much better place if more people prayed for deliverance from the evils of this world.

And yet you didn't answer the question. Nice to know your god gets the credit for Dunkirk but avouds the blane for the Holiocaust. Apart from just being a number of unevidenced assertions, your position is based on a built in 'logic' of cherry picking so your whole approach is empty.

[Maeght]

This world is certainly a better place than it would have been without these extraordinary answers to prayer:

Saving Europe from being conquered by the forces of Ottoman empire against all the odds.
https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

The King's call for our nation to pray for a miraculous saving of the British army at Dunkirk.
https://www.goli.org.uk/post/80th-anniversary-of-the-nation-being-called-to-prayer

The Pope's intervention which helped save us from a nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/preventing-war-pope-john-xxiii-and-the-cuban-missile-crisis

And Christians all over the world have been praying for Ukraine to avoid being conquered by the might of the Russian army.

Yes, the world is a better place due to answers to prayer, but I am sure it would be a much better place if more people prayed for deliverance from the evils of this world.

No evidence that prayer played any part in any of that.

[Alan Burns]

And yet you didn't answer the question. Nice to know your god gets the credit for Dunkirk but avouds the blane for the Holiocaust. Apart from just being a number of unevidenced assertions, your position is based on a built in 'logic' of cherry picking so your whole approach is empty.

The "question" you put to me was more a statement of your own scepticism which I was unable to endorse.
I responded in the only way I could by quoting profound examples of potential turning points in human history where millions of people were called to pray for a beneficial outcome.  Had any one of them succumbed to the oppressive regimes which looked likely to succeed, we would be living in a world very different from the present state of freedom we all now enjoy.  What they all had in common was that a desirable outcome seemed highly unlikely when contemplating the overwhelming advantages possessed by these oppressive regimes.

Regarding your comment on the Holocaust, the regime responsible for the Holocaust was ultimately defeated - and there were seven calls for national days of prayer, made by King George VI to help  bring about this victory:
https://ctntp.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/seven-national-calls-to-prayer-in-wwii.pdf

In addition to my original statement:
Never underestimate the power of prayer
I should have also added:
Never underestimate the power of evil

[Nearly Sane]

The "question" you put to me was more a statement of your own scepticism which I was unable to endorse.
I responded in the only way I could by quoting profound examples of potential turning points in human history where millions of people were called to pray for a beneficial outcome.  Had any one of them succumbed to the oppressive regimes which looked likely to succeed, we would be living in a world very different from the present state of freedom we all now enjoy.  What they all had in common was that a desirable outcome seemed highly unlikely when contemplating the overwhelming advantages possessed by these oppressive regimes.

Regarding your comment on the Holocaust, the regime responsible for the Holocaust was ultimately defeated - and there were seven calls for national days of prayer, made by King George VI to help  bring about this victory:
https://ctntp.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/seven-national-calls-to-prayer-in-wwii.pdf

In addition to my original statement:
Never underestimate the power of prayer
I should have also added:
Never underestimate the power of evil

No, here's the question again:
so if prayer is powerful and you and others have been prayering away over your 70+ years, it would be logical to think the world is much better now than ever. Do you think that? If not why not?

That is not a statement about my scepticism but a logical conclusion from your position and asking you if you agree with it. You haven't answered it.


If god is all knowing and all powetful and chose create the world this way, your god chose the evil that exists, chose to give it the power has and therefore chose to murder 6 million Jews, and that is the god you worship. It created the leakeamia that killed my cousin at 4 months, and you worship that. It chose for climate change to happen and you worship that.

[Gordon]

Through prayer, God can motivate people into action.
In my 70+ years on this earth, one thing I have learnt is:

Never underestimate the power of prayer

I'm presuming that people have been praying for a cure for cancer - so how come I've got incurable cancer?

[Alan Burns]

No, here's the question again:
so if prayer is powerful and you and others have been prayering away over your 70+ years, it would be logical to think the world is much better now than ever. Do you think that? If not why not?

The world is a much better place than it would have been without the prayers of millions of people.

That is not a statement about my scepticism but a logical conclusion from your position and asking you if you agree with it. You haven't answered it.

see above

If god is all knowing and all powetful and chose create the world this way, your god chose the evil that exists, chose to give it the power has and therefore chose to murder 6 million Jews, and that is the god you worship. It created the leakeamia that killed my cousin at 4 months, and you worship that. It chose for climate change to happen and you worship that.

I worship the God who gave me life and the power to choose my own destiny.
I worship the God who suffered and died in reparation for my sins and the sins of the whole world.
I worship the God who offers eternal salvation for my human soul
I worship the God who alone has the power to conquer evil
I worship the God who loves me

[Nearly Sane]

The world is a much better place than it would have been without the prayers of millions of people.see aboveI worship the God who gave me life and the power to choose my own destiny.
I worship the God who suffered and died in reparation for my sins and the sins of the whole world.
I worship the God who offers eternal salvation for my human soul
I worship the God who alone has the power to conquer evil
I worship the God who loves me

I note you again didn't answer the question.

You then put up a number of unevidenced assertions, and didn't deal with the issues in your own logic that I pointed out.

[Maeght]

The world is a much better place than it would have been without the prayers of millions of people.see above I worship the God who gave me life and the power to choose my own destiny.

There is no evidence that prayer has done anything.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There is no evidence that prayer has done anything.

I think it have been CSLewis who said prayer doesn't change God, it changes us.

I wonder if the conclusion prayer hasn't dome anything comes as welcome second hand material.

I also wonder people are averse to it for fear of divine revelation.

[Nearly Sane]

I think it have been CSLewis who said prayer doesn't change God, it changes us.

I wonder if the conclusion prayer hasn't dome anything comes as welcome second hand material.

I also wonder people are averse to it for fear of divine revelation.

So you are saying that you disagree with Alan Burns idea of the effects of prayer.

[Alan Burns]

As we lurch from crisis to crisis - pandemic, climate change, war, terrorism, global energy costs ....
Our increasingly secular society turns away from the one source of divine help.
We cannot call upon God's miraculous intervention when we turn our backs to Him.
Now more than ever - the world needs to repent and turn back to the God who brought everything into being and the only one who can save us.

[Alan Burns]

So you are saying that you disagree with Alan Burns idea of the effects of prayer.

here is the quote:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1005539-i-pray-because-i-can-t-help-myself-i-pray-because

[Nearly Sane]

here is the quote:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1005539-i-pray-because-i-can-t-help-myself-i-pray-because

Not sure why you have posted the quote. Are ypu saying that you agree with it, in which case there are no miracle cures?

[Nearly Sane]

As we lurch from crisis to crisis - pandemic, climate change, war, terrorism, global energy costs ....
Our increasingly secular society turns away from the one source of divine help.
We cannot call upon God's miraculous intervention when we turn our backs to Him.
Now more than ever - the world needs to repent and turn back to the God who brought everything into being and the only one who can save us.

Ok, so now you are saying that despite all the praying the world is getting worse. When was it at its best in your opinion?

[Maeght]

I think it have been CSLewis who said prayer doesn't change God, it changes us.

I wonder if the conclusion prayer hasn't dome anything comes as welcome second hand material.

I also wonder people are averse to it for fear of divine revelation.

Not sure what 'as welcome second hand material' means - however, there is no evidence that prayer has done anything. People who pray may behave differently to those who don't. Belief in the power of prayer may mean people behave differently. But that is different from saying prayer has an effect.

[Maeght]

As we lurch from crisis to crisis - pandemic, climate change, war, terrorism, global energy costs ....
Our increasingly secular society turns away from the one source of divine help.
We cannot call upon God's miraculous intervention when we turn our backs to Him.
Now more than ever - the world needs to repent and turn back to the God who brought everything into being and the only one who can save us.

And that ends today's sermon.

[ProfessorDavey]

As we lurch from crisis to crisis - pandemic, climate change, war, terrorism, global energy costs ....
Our increasingly secular society turns away from the one source of divine help.
We cannot call upon God's miraculous intervention when we turn our backs to Him.
Now more than ever - the world needs to repent and turn back to the God who brought everything into being and the only one who can save us.

There have been very few proper studies looking at the effect of prayer. And any that do so have to be designed to take account of the psychological impact of people knowing they are being prayed for - which isn't anything to do with 'god' intervening.

So there is certainly one major study that has been properly designed - this involved patients recovering from cardiac surgery and looking at the incidence of post operative complications. There were three groups:

1. This group did not receive prayer
2. This group did receive prayer but weren't told that they had received it
3. This group did receive prayer and were aware of this

Groups 1 and 2 were both told that they may or may not receive prayer, but were not aware which group they were in.

The complication rates for groups 1 and 2 were the same demonstrating that prayer does not work. Group 3 had statistically greater complication rates, indicating that knowledge of being prayer for had a negative effect in this case, presumable due to the psychological impact that being told you were being prayed for had on persecution of seriousness of the condition.