Author Topic: Hi, guys!  (Read 3368 times)

Rhiannon

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Hi, guys!
« on: August 02, 2018, 07:26:42 AM »
I don't get this, Isn't 'guys' a gender-neutral term these days? Sure, it can be cringey (as pointed out by Rob Byron) when used by posh parents trying to be cool (as in, 'so are you guys going to help with the washing-up?') And it is irritating for reasons that I can't quite put my finger on. But language has shifted, even in the 80's I had friends who referred to mixed gender groups of people as 'the guys', and I don't see it as a symbol of patriarchy and oppression.

And for years I have routinely referred to my offspring (featuring both genders) as 'chaps' (as in, 'Time to go, chaps' - I have a vague feeling that I am channelling Queenie from Blackadder). Am I sexist?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2018/aug/01/hi-guys-whats-wrong-with-this-greeting

Aruntraveller

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 08:37:26 AM »
I have no objection to it on the griunds given. My objection is that to my ears it sounds like a common, cheap Americanizm. Having said that an English equivalent used particularly when parents are talking to their offspring is 'mate', this drives me to the edge of violence. The chikd is not your mate. You arent merely a friend you are a parent. Now fucking act like one.

There. First rant of the day. I feel so much better.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2018, 08:45:01 AM »
I have no objection to it on the griunds given. My objection is that to my ears it sounds like a common, cheap Americanizm. Having said that an English equivalent used particularly when parents are talking to their offspring is 'mate', this drives me to the edge of violence. The chikd is not your mate. You arent merely a friend you are a parent. Now fucking act like one.

There. First rant of the day. I feel so much better.

My son has always been 'mate' to me and his sisters. I don't think it has prevented me from acting as a parent. 'Mate' is just a colloquialism here, like 'love' or 'dear', only this one probably isn't gender neutral.

'Little git' is the kind of thing shit parents use, and I've heard it on too many occasions.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2018, 08:58:25 AM »
Oh I fully realise its my personal prejudices re the use of language. Although there was the mother of a child on a flight who insisted on kicking the back of my seat. After an hour I asked quite politely if he could stop. The mother grudgingly agreed and then when I had turned away said to her child "its alright mate some people love to complain". That did prompt a response from me asking why she was taking a child on holiday in term time. Things started to get a little heated but my partner pulled me down from the cabin ceiling to avoid full on "escorted off the plane" scenario.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2018, 09:04:35 AM »
The word 'mate' irritates me.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2018, 09:10:10 AM »
Oh I fully realise its my personal prejudices re the use of language. Although there was the mother of a child on a flight who insisted on kicking the back of my seat. After an hour I asked quite politely if he could stop. The mother grudgingly agreed and then when I had turned away said to her child "its alright mate some people love to complain". That did prompt a response from me asking why she was taking a child on holiday in term time. Things started to get a little heated but my partner pulled me down from the cabin ceiling to avoid full on "escorted off the plane" scenario.

Some parents are arseholes, but it's about the parenting, not the use of terms of endearment.

I thought about this some more after my last post and I wonder if there's an unconscious gender bias here. Although girls don't have a similar term that I can obviously think of, on some level we expect mothers and daughters to be friends as well as family. Why isn't it acceptable for boys to be friends with their parents too? Do we think on some level that boys are more 'difficult' and therefore in need of stricter parenting and more discipline? One of the greatest pleasures in my life is hanging out with my kids, and by some miracle they do actually want to spend time with me just doing stuff, even though they are all teenagers now. I'm always their parent, with all that entails, but sometimes I'm their mate as well, and I'm bloody lucky that this is the case.

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2018, 10:23:32 AM »
I do like the idea that Jane Garvey doesn't like the term Guy because there is a Guy called Garvey. Just discussing this with the chaps and they've suggested that "JaneGarveyfromradio4" is a new gender neutral term that we should all be employing.

ippy

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2018, 12:47:57 PM »
I have no objection to it on the griunds given. My objection is that to my ears it sounds like a common, cheap Americanizm. Having said that an English equivalent used particularly when parents are talking to their offspring is 'mate', this drives me to the edge of violence. The chikd is not your mate. You arent merely a friend you are a parent. Now fucking act like one.

There. First rant of the day. I feel so much better.

Generally I feel the same as you do but there are some Americanisms that can be better than the English English versions, like laid back it puts a better picture into my head of someone taking things easy than word relaxed ever did.

Don't set me off, the English language has altered so much from my young days.

Regards ippy

Regards ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2018, 01:02:17 PM »
Generally I feel the same as you do but there are some Americanisms that can be better than the English English versions, like laid back it puts a better picture into my head of someone taking things easy than word relaxed ever did.

Don't set me off, the English language has altered so much from my young days.

Regards ippy

Regards ippy

I remember when 'Yours sincerely' was the correct way to sign off a communication....

Samuel

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2018, 01:06:54 PM »
'Guys' is preferable to 'peeps', which was popular while I was at university. If you're wondering, its a corruption of 'people'.

I tend to use 'guys' and 'folks'. When I'm with my friends I use 'idiots'.

It got confusing in the office in the last couple of years because a man called Guy joined team. Not only did 'guys' seem no longer useful it also made the word 'Hi' difficult in casual emails... 'Hi Guy'... see it rhymes so just looks weird. I've taken to using 'hey' when I write emails to him these days.

Any road... to even things out there should really be an equivalent for women. Often 'girls' is used interchangeably with 'guys' but then the complaint comes that that is infantilising women. Oh, but how about 'gals'? I actually know a women who uses that term quite a bit... you wouldn't use it for a man thought, would you.

Ha! there you go, 'guy' isn't a slur on women, its actually a demonstration how well women have appropriated elements of culture traditionally assigned to the masculine. Men have failed to lay any substantial claim to femininity and so can't be 'gals' in the same way. Take that Garvey!

A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2018, 01:27:36 PM »
I loathe the term ‘girls’ when applied to adult women.

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2018, 01:40:22 PM »
I loathe the term ‘girls’ when applied to adult women.


That doesn't worry me.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2018, 01:52:51 PM »

That doesn't worry me.

It's infantilising.

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2018, 02:26:10 PM »
It's infantilising.

As I am in my second childhood anyway, no problem. ;D
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2018, 02:27:15 PM »
It's infantilising.

I associate "HI Guys and Gals" with Jimmy Savile.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 02:31:46 PM »
I remember when 'Yours sincerely' was the correct way to sign off a communication....

And when officials of the Civil Service terminated letters with:

    "I have the honour to remain
      Your obedient servant"

To which one could reply (particularly at moments of dispute):

     "You have the honour to remain
      My obedient servant"
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 02:33:34 PM »
I associate "HI Guys and Gals" with Jimmy Savile.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone else use that expression, which would of course be extremely off puting as it is associated with that pervert.
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Samuel

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 03:08:53 PM »
I loathe the term ‘girls’ when applied to adult women.

I get that its considered infantilisation, and patronising in the same vein as calling someone 'dear' or 'darling', but I've always thought there was an element of ironic humour to calling adults 'girls' or indeed adult men 'boys'. And a hint of shared pretence to allow for misbehaviour... as in 'lets all behave like children because its fun'.

I'd like to understand why it bothers you so much. Would you mind explaining a little? Do you think there is something more sinister involved?
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2018, 03:10:38 PM »
I get that its considered infantilisation, and patronising in the same vein as calling someone 'dear' or 'darling', but I've always thought there was an element of ironic humour to calling adults 'girls' or indeed adult men 'boys'. And a hint of shared pretence to allow for misbehaviour... as in 'lets all behave like children because its fun'.

I'd like to understand why it bothers you so much. Would you mind explaining a little? Do you think there is something more sinister involved?


I don't regard being called 'girl' irritating in the same way as I do with 'dear' and 'darling'.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 03:13:52 PM »
I get that its considered infantilisation, and patronising in the same vein as calling someone 'dear' or 'darling', but I've always thought there was an element of ironic humour to calling adults 'girls' or indeed adult men 'boys'. And a hint of shared pretence to allow for misbehaviour... as in 'lets all behave like children because its fun'.

I'd like to understand why it bothers you so much. Would you mind explaining a little? Do you think there is something more sinister involved?

Depends how it is used. Women can refer to themselves as girls, just as black people can refer to themselves as niggers. The problem is that it from a male point of usage isn't always used as boys and girls but men and girls. As ever on this sort of stuff it's about speaking to power and too often we see the opposite. Is it sinister? Depends. Have a look at Reddit or indeed Trump's campaign and yes. Do people use the term innocently, yep. But to ignore the use of it to patronize in a literal sense, seems to me as if you don't talk to women.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 03:27:45 PM by Nearly Sane »

Rhiannon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 03:24:30 PM »
I get that its considered infantilisation, and patronising in the same vein as calling someone 'dear' or 'darling', but I've always thought there was an element of ironic humour to calling adults 'girls' or indeed adult men 'boys'. And a hint of shared pretence to allow for misbehaviour... as in 'lets all behave like children because its fun'.

I'd like to understand why it bothers you so much. Would you mind explaining a little? Do you think there is something more sinister involved?

I like 'darlin' (dropped g) as a term of endearment but then it is a colloquialism to where I grew up and it's actually a warm and friendly greeting. Never get called 'dear'.

I think 'girls' bothers me partly because of what you say - it sets the tone for a certain kind of behaviour - a 'girls night out' has different connotations to 'drinks with friends'. But I think a lot of it has to do with how being a 'woman' is still seen as a negative. Even today my girls are told to be have in a 'ladylike' manner at school. 'Girls' is just another way of avoiding labelling women as what they are. I could elaborate more but its probably best that I don't.

Eta ok, I will say this. I've met enough men who hate women to want to claim the word for myself and cling to it. They don't hate 'girls', they don't hate 'ladies', they hate women. 'Girls' is a term that diminishes and denies.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 03:42:01 PM by Rhiannon »

Roses

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2018, 03:36:41 PM »
When you get to my age it is pleasant to be called a girl, instead of a daft old bat, my youngest sister's term of endearment for her aged sibling. ;D
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Gordon

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2018, 03:42:51 PM »
As ever with these things context is important, as is whether or not there is any existing familiarity, and the extent to which local colloquial terms are the norm.

Rhi has mentioned 'darlin(g)' and 'mate', both of which would I think come across oddly here in Glasgow, where the former feels patronising to me because, I suppose, it would be unusual here whereas addressing a male as 'Jim' or 'Jimmy' or a woman or girl as 'hen' would be unremarkable. 

A phrase like 'how are you guys doing' as a collective term is one I've used but only where it is someone I've had a conversation or e-mail exchanges with previously: to use it with reference to people some/all of whom I'd just met, such as in a formal meeting (in the bad old days when I had to earn a living), and where I didn't really 'know' at least some of them, would seem crass to me. Perhaps some people feel that a more relaxed or laid-back approach when addressing people is better: whether those being addressed would agree is another matter. 

I latterly worked with a guy, a fairly senior manager, who invariably used to address mixed gender groups as 'chaps and chapesses', which made everyone cringe!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 03:47:57 PM by Gordon »

wigginhall

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2018, 03:49:15 PM »
Anybody lived in Bristol, where 'lover' used to be common, I think applied to m and f, very nice in a Bristow accent, all roight,  my lover?
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Hi, guys!
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2018, 04:22:26 PM »
Anybody lived in Bristol, where 'lover' used to be common, I think applied to m and f, very nice in a Bristow accent, all roight,  my lover?

Norfolk man living in Bristol here. 'My lover' is still going strong. Sounds a little bit too intimate when you first hear it. I'd prefer Bruce Forsyth's "All right, my love".

Re: 'Mate' - my father used to call me that. I hated it; it seemed to indicate his refusal to allow any real intimacy between us.
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