Is this sport?

[Nearly Sane]

The eWorld Cup


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45081668

[jeremyp]

Depends on your definition of sport.

I think I'd probably say it is a sport.

[Nearly Sane]

Depends on your definition of sport.

I think I'd probably say it is a sport.

What is your definition of sport that it falls into?

[Rhiannon]

For me it is a sport more than a lot of accepted sports are, including many Olympic sports, because it relies simply on winning rather than 'style' points awarded by judges who are influenced by the fashions of the day, national biases and goodness knows what. So bye bye figure skating, synchronised swimming, gymnastics, dressage et al, and welcome to eFIFA.

As an aside I think my son may have found his future career. 

[jeremyp]

What is your definition of sport that it falls into?

That's a good question. I tried to think of a definition of sport that would exclude video game playing but include most of the activities we consider sports today. For example, I couldn't think up a definition that includes (real) football, darts, snooker and formula one but not video gaming.

[jeremyp]

For me it is a sport more than a lot of accepted sports are, including many Olympic sports, because it relies simply on winning rather than 'style' points awarded by judges who are influenced by the fashions of the day, national biases and goodness knows what. So bye bye figure skating, synchronised swimming, gymnastics, dressage et al, and welcome to eFIFA.

Agreed. I wouldn't have anything in the Olympics that cannot be judged on objective criteria. If subjective opinions come into the scoring system, it is art, not sport IMO.

[Nearly Sane]

That's a good question. I tried to think of a definition of sport that would exclude video game playing but include most of the activities we consider sports today. For example, I couldn't think up a definition that includes (real) football, darts, snooker and formula one but not video gaming.

Has a look at the IOC's view of sports and it includes chess and bridge - So I would think on that view eFootball would be a sport. Not sure I agree with them though.

In a sense it's irrelevant, if you can get game and money through it, it's a business.

[Rhiannon]

Agreed. I wouldn't have anything in the Olympics that cannot be judged on objective criteria. If subjective opinions come into the scoring system, it is art, not sport IMO.

And yet some sports that would be lost are spectacular to view. Diving blows me away. It's not obviously creative as synchro or dressage are. But its results are subjective, and therefore don't have a huge amount of meaning once you get to the top of the competition, where  very small margins make a huge difference between who gets medals and who doesn't.

[Rhiannon]

Has a look at the IOC's view of sports and it includes chess and bridge - So I would think on that view eFootball would be a sport. Not sure I agree with them though.

In a sense it's irrelevant, if you can get game and money through it, it's a business.

As Barry Hearn once said, he can sell out a game (darts) that can't be followed with the naked eye.

Should sport include a degree of physical endeavour?

[Nearly Sane]

As Barry Hearn once said, he can sell out a game (darts) that can't be followed with the naked eye.

Should sport include a degree of physical endeavour?

The question is even if you include that, what is the degree? I can imagine that competing at eFootball to a high standard will take a fair amount of physical effort. Maybe the solution is not to care. If people want to see it then that's ok.

[Rhiannon]

The question is even if you include that, what is the degree? I can imagine that competing at eFootball to a high standard will take a fair amount of physical effort. Maybe the solution is not to care. If people want to see it then that's ok.

WWE isn’t a sport, because it’s scripted, yet it requires an enormous amount of physical fitness and skill.

Leaving the question of whether a medal won for swimming prettily should carry as equal weight as one for swimming fast (note, I’m aware of the skill, dedication and fitness of synchro swimmers), I think you are right. If people enjoy watching and taking part... I guess my only concern is the price of success, which in some quarters appears to be results achieved by bullying at the expense of the mental health of competitors. But that’s another story.

[jeremyp]

And yet some sports that would be lost are spectacular to view. Diving blows me away. It's not obviously creative as synchro or dressage are. But its results are subjective, and therefore don't have a huge amount of meaning once you get to the top of the competition, where  very small margins make a huge difference between who gets medals and who doesn't.

I was thinking about that. Diving could be made objective. I believe each manoeuvre already has a difficulty rating and part of the scoring is determined by that. You could make up reasonably objective criteria for whether a move has been executed correctly and some other criteria like do they enter the water completely vertically etc.

Synchronised swimming would be lost to the Olympics as would some other staples like figure skating, gymnastics, dressage, maybe boxing, ski jump. A lot of these activities would be harmed by the loss of exposure so maybe there should be an artistic olympics to run in parallel with the sport olympics.

[Rhiannon]

I was thinking about that. Diving could be made objective. I believe each manoeuvre already has a difficulty rating and part of the scoring is determined by that. You could make up reasonably objective criteria for whether a move has been executed correctly and some other criteria like do they enter the water completely vertically etc.

Synchronised swimming would be lost to the Olympics as would some other staples like figure skating, gymnastics, dressage, maybe boxing, ski jump. A lot of these activities would be harmed by the loss of exposure so maybe there should be an artistic olympics to run in parallel with the sport olympics.

I was thinking of a kind of artistic gymnastics too, which could also be opened up to circus skills, ballroom dancing etc.

I think ski jump could survive if it was judged solely on distance covered.

[Nearly Sane]

I was thinking about that. Diving could be made objective. I believe each manoeuvre already has a difficulty rating and part of the scoring is determined by that. You could make up reasonably objective criteria for whether a move has been executed correctly and some other criteria like do they enter the water completely vertically etc.

Synchronised swimming would be lost to the Olympics as would some other staples like figure skating, gymnastics, dressage, maybe boxing, ski jump. A lot of these activities would be harmed by the loss of exposure so maybe there should be an artistic olympics to run in parallel with the sport olympics.

Not sure why you see diving as specifically different here, figure skating, dressage and gymnastics all use similarly pretend objective measures. I think when we call boxing part of artistic Olympics, then we are in some world of definition that I don't get.

[Nearly Sane]

Oh, and while we are on such things, the timing may be objective but can we get rid of walking as a sport, at least until we invent shoes that don the checking that they are walking by the definition of the sport.

[Rhiannon]

Not sure why you see diving as specifically different here, figure skating, dressage and gymnastics all use similarly pretend objective measures. I think when we call boxing part of artistic Olympics, then we are in some world of definition that I don't get.

I guess that diving could work if it is judged purely by some kind of computer algorithm or something. Otherwise all competitors will just have to join the artistic lot and wear sparkly costumes.

The judging in boxing at the Olympics has long been held to be dodgy; I remember a lot of disquiet around the results at Los Angeles for example. But it isn't artistic, even less so in the amateur game. But boxing is a success without the Olympics, like football and tennis, so I think it could leave and not take a significant hit to its popularity.

[jeremyp]

Not sure why you see diving as specifically different here, figure skating, dressage and gymnastics all use similarly pretend objective measures.

It would be a lot easier with diving than the others though. You could do it with figure skating but if figure skating went that way, it would be transformed completely. All the artistic elements would be dropped and it would be athletes in lycra suits simply doing difficult jumps with no attempt at artistic expression whatever. Some bits of gymnastics could be done in the same way as diving but the floor exercises and the asymmetric bars would be difficult and time consuming to score.

I think when we call boxing part of artistic Olympics, then we are in some world of definition that I don't get.

Boxing could be made into a sport. Just count the number of landed punches. Since olympic boxers wear helmets, you could wire them to detect hits electronically and do away with the judges much like with fencing.

Anyway, does it really matter whether we label an activity a sport or not?

[Rhiannon]

Robot Wars is a sport.

[Nearly Sane]

I guess that diving could work if it is judged purely bu some kind of computer algorithm or something. Otherwise all competitors will just have to wear sparkly costumes.

The judging in boxing at the Olympics has long been held to be dodgy; I remember a lot of disquiet around the results at Los Angeles for example. But it isn't artistic, even less so in the amateur game. But boxing is a success without the Olympics, like football and tennis, so I think it could leave and not take a significant hit to its popularity.

Computers algorithms are just coded prejudice. It might be consistent but it still wouldn't be objective in the same way time is, even allowing for the screw up with Peaty's world record.

There have been various attempts to reduce the corruption in boxing which revolve around similar approaches to other sports including diving which revolve around the reducing of the influence of individual judges. So in the Olympics it's about valid hits as judges by the majority of judges recorded in specific times.

Football and tennis existed for years outside the Olympics. Boxing is both an original in the Ancient games, and been part of every Olympics since 1904 except 1. It's history in the professional sport is littered with Olympics winners. It might well survive without the Olympics but it has a very different relationship with them than tennis or golf.

[Rhiannon]

Anyway, does it really matter whether we label an activity a sport or not?

I think it only matters when comparing apples and pears such as at the Olympics and giving equal weight to both. Otherwise, I don't think so.

[Nearly Sane]

It would be a lot easier with diving than the others though. You could do it with figure skating but if figure skating went that way, it would be transformed completely. All the artistic elements would be dropped and it would be athletes in lycra suits simply doing difficult jumps with no attempt at artistic expression whatever. Some bits of gymnastics could be done in the same way as diving but the floor exercises and the asymmetric bars would be difficult and time consuming to score.
Boxing could be made into a sport. Just count the number of landed punches. Since olympic boxers wear helmets, you could wire them to detect hits electronically and do away with the judges much like with fencing.

Anyway, does it really matter whether we label an activity a sport or not?

They do count the number of landed punches in the Olympics. Problem is that unlike fencing the definition of punch isn't as clear. So there are contacts that aren't punches.

Don't buy the idea that asymmetric bars or floor is any quicker than the actions in diving.

[Rhiannon]

Football and tennis existed for years outside the Olympics. Boxing is both an original in the Ancient games, and been part of every Olympics since 1904 except 1. It's history in the professional sport is littered with Olympics winners. It might well survive without the Olympics but it has a very different relationship with them than tennis or golf.

So boxing may need to change then.

Doesn't judo have a similar problem, if not worse?

[Nearly Sane]

I think it only matters when comparing apples and pears such as at the Olympics and giving equal weight to both. Otherwise, I don't think so.

But we don't even there. The 100 metres men's Sprint isn't really accorded the same weight as the women's K2 kayak winner. It's just stuff we watch.

[Rhiannon]

But we don't even there. The 100 metres men's Sprint isn't really accorded the same weight as the women's K2 kayak winner. It's just stuff we watch.

I am not competitive at anything (except pub quizzes, and no, I'm not claiming that they are a sport) but I can imagine that from a competitor's point of view it makes a difference. And it does to me watching, I'm afraid. As much as I can admire a great dive or even the skill of dressage, my brain discounts the result in some way that it doesn't when watching someone go the fastest or furthest. I think once you realise the subjective nature of the results of some sports, you can't un-realise it.

[Nearly Sane]

So boxing may need to change then.

Doesn't judo have a similar problem, if not worse?

So boxing may need to change then.

Doesn't judo have a similar problem, if not worse?

It has changed, and continues to do so. And yep, I think all of the martial arts have similar issues. Again, I'm not sure that it is much of a problem.