Author Topic: Boris Johnson and the black letter box  (Read 3514 times)

Harrowby Hall

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Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« on: August 08, 2018, 08:12:17 AM »
I have to admit that I am somewhat conflicted by the consequences of Mr Johnson's latest characterisation of "islamic dress".

In the first place, anything which restricts the progress of this fatuous, self-important, bloated nonentity on its self-appointed journey to 10 Downing Street has my approval, but I am disappointed to observe that it appears to be some form of political correctness that is currently being used.

My view is that everyone has the right to hold any religious belief they wish and that right is absolute. But it is also my view that believers do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else. There is little that is "islamic" about the grossly enveloping and de-humanising garments that are forced upon adult (and sometimes child) female adherents of islam. They are most likely remnants of earlier tribal times where women were considered to be possessions with values equivalent to those of well-kept camels. That women should choose to wear such garments is one thing - but there remains the possibility that they either have no choice in the matter or have been brainwashed in a patriarchal environment into doing so.

The idea that religious practices and beliefs may not be questioned is inimical in a civilised, secular society. It is up to believers to justify their beliefs not to expect society to protect them. Boris Johnson has expressed a valid opinion in an open society on the behaviour of some citizens. He should not be penalised for this. I note that Baroness Warsi does not go around dressed in a bell tent.

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Aruntraveller

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2018, 08:21:05 AM »
As a Muslim women said yesterday, I don't notice any great outcry to ban motorcycle helmets and yet I have been robbed twice by men on mopeds wearing helmets. Strangely a woman in a burka has never attacked me.

It's an exercise in "othering" as discussed elsewhere on the board. I  think it is borderline racist - you can argue that it's typical Johnson hyperbole, but the problem with that is, as we are seeing over the pond, hyperbole can have some very unfortunate consequences.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2018, 08:24:57 AM »
On the Radio 4 PM programme yesterday, Eddie Mair read out quite a long section of the Daily Telegraph article and it was quite cclear from that that the remarks taken out of context were not the vile, terrible slur they are alredy being made out to be.
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Shaker

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2018, 08:25:34 AM »
As a Muslim women said yesterday, I don't notice any great outcry to ban motorcycle helmets and yet I have been robbed twice by men on mopeds wearing helmets.
Helmets serve a legitimate purpose though - and though you may never have encountered it, there's a libertarian argument that people should not be legally compelled to wear them (likewise seatbelts).

Quote
It's an exercise in "othering" as discussed elsewhere on the board.
As in the aforementioned discussion, some people other themselves.
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Gordon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2018, 08:26:49 AM »
I see that the notion he is speaking on behalf of a liberal agenda has been raised by one of his supporters (as quoted in the BBC website).

Call me a cynic if you will but I wonder if this isn't more about keeping up Boris's profile during the Westminster recess now that he isn't a cabinet minister any more - it reminds me of the adage that goes along the lines of 'there is no such thing as bad publicity: there is just publicity'.



Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2018, 08:34:09 AM »
I see that the notion he is speaking on behalf of a liberal agenda has been raised by one of his supporters (as quoted in the BBC website).

Call me a cynic if you will but I wonder if this isn't more about keeping up Boris's profile during the Westminster recess now that he isn't a cabinet minister any more - it reminds me of the adage that goes along the lines of 'there is no such thing as bad publicity: there is just publicity'.

Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2018, 08:42:42 AM »
I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 08:46:06 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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Gordon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2018, 08:44:00 AM »
Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?

Perhaps.

This reminds me of yet another adage, one I recall from Yes Minister along the lines of 'politicians much prefer notoriety to obscurity'. Maybe he wants to be thought of as an edgy charismatic leader albeit he has as much charisma as a rotten apple, unless of course one is a fan of rotten apples.

Gordon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2018, 08:46:09 AM »
I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism.

That is a fair point, but I don't think that is Boris's key point in this episode - I think in this episode Boris's key point is Boris.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2018, 08:53:54 AM »
Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?
No,but he would love the threat to be made. Essentially this is straight out the Trump playbook.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2018, 08:56:20 AM »
I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.
Not sure that implication is there, and the much bigger worry on that is surely the argument on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

Roses

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2018, 08:56:52 AM »
Boris behaves like a clown, his remarks about burkas weren't helpful!
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Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2018, 08:57:45 AM »
I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.

But this has to be seen in the context of the problems that Labour has with anti-Semitism, which are being countered with accusations that the Tories have similar issues with Islamophobia. Obviously the two aren't the same, but the Tories could be thinking about point-scoring by taking 'decisive' action over Johnson. The downside to that would be that Johnson is the a loose cannon, but he is that anyway.

Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2018, 08:59:30 AM »
No,but he would love the threat to be made. Essentially this is straight out the Trump playbook.

Yep, agree with this. He's not stupid, is he?

Anchorman

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 09:01:59 AM »
Boris behaves like a clown, his remarks about burkas weren't helpful!
   






He might behave like a clown....but he knows exactly what he's doing, and he probably had every intention of being 'Boris' in his column.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2018, 09:10:58 AM »
Yep, agree with this. He's not stupid, is he?
Not at all, the discussion of the burqa, allows him to play the liberal card so that he isn't seen as too right wing but he can signal the nod to the right wing by use of the 'jokey' terms such as letterbox and bank robber, and remember this is in a piece where he was calling for grown up discussion.

It would be ideal for a threat to remove the whip to happen because he then has a justification to stand against May to protect the party. This would also lend itself to him saying that given the problems caused by simply discussing this, perhaps he had been wrong and consideration should be given to what happens with the burqa.


The irony of course is May, the prime pusher of racist policies when in the Home Office, trying to appear as the progressive here.

wigginhall

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2018, 09:43:00 AM »
I wonder if he cares that attacks on Muslims may increase because of his vile language?   I guess not, it's all in the cause of Boris.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2018, 09:46:35 AM »
I wonder if he cares that attacks on Muslims may increase because of his vile language?   I guess not, it's all in the cause of Boris.

I don't believe he has the self-awareness to think that could happen. He is Boris, and Boris is right; people who may be violent to Muslims are Other People.

wigginhall

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2018, 09:52:11 AM »
And I read that it's women who are mainly attacked, presumably because they are recognizable if they are wearing headscarves.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2018, 09:58:19 AM »
And I read that it's women who are mainly attacked, presumably because they are recognizable if they are wearing headscarves.

And the kind of people who attack Muslim women probably don't like women much anyway. It's not simply a justification to attack Muslims, it is at least as much a justification to attack women.

wigginhall

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2018, 10:10:25 AM »
What an absolute creep to attack women in this way, and use dehumanizing language.   Tommy Robinson eat your heart out.  I suppose it will please the Tory heartlands.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 10:13:51 AM by wigginhall »
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Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2018, 10:15:43 AM »
What an absolute creep to attack women in this way, and use dehumanizing language.   Tommy Robinson eat your heart out.  I suppose it will please the Tory heartlands.

While dressing it up to look like he’s trying to protect woman from coercion.

Udayana

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2018, 10:19:06 AM »
Javid is likely to stand in the next Tory leadership contest, Johnson is blowing the whistle to get the public to the pro/anti Muslim starting line.
 
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2018, 11:52:35 AM »
Helmets serve a legitimate purpose though - and though you may never have encountered it, there's a libertarian argument that people should not be legally compelled to wear them (likewise seatbelts).
As in the aforementioned discussion, some people other themselves.

Balaclavas then. Of course Ive come across it. Even read some Ayn Rand. As to othering themselves, funny it comes up in the conversation about Muslims, but not if you talk about skinheads, or racists or the neo right. Oh yes we are truly in a time of redfinitions of lots of things. And its working.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Rhiannon

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Re: Boris Johnson and the black letter box
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2018, 11:58:22 AM »
A group of young people who chose to 'other' themselves. One sadly no longer with us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40628457