Yet another thread about the 'Self'

[Sriram]

enki,

I don't think you have any serious experience of Yoga or Pranayama or meditations.

Not just in Hinduism but also in Jain and Buddhist traditions, spiritual aspirants can be guided in very specific ways to achieve very specific goals.  Sometimes on a one to one basis, they can even be guided thought by thought, emotion by emotion to achieve certain mental states.   

There are rarely any wide range of interpretations.....only different paths and different stages of development. Different paths and different milestones are fairly clearly understood by Yogis and other teachers. 

[torridon]

enki,

I don't think you have any serious experience of Yoga or Pranayama or meditations.

Not just in Hinduism but also in Jain and Buddhist traditions, spiritual aspirants can be guided in very specific ways to achieve very specific goals.  Sometimes on a one to one basis, they can even be guided thought by thought, emotion by emotion to achieve certain mental states.   

There are rarely any wide range of interpretations.....only different paths and different stages of development. Different paths and different milestones are fairly clearly understood by Yogis and other teachers.

Certain types of practice can yield certain classes of mind state; that seems undeniable.  I know what sort of mind state I can acheive with the help of a fine single malt whisky and good log fire. Altering our mind state can alter the way you think and see the world whilst in that state.  It might be beneficial, it might not be, depending on the individual.  I think we need to be cautious about grand claims of objective truth that derive mostly from altered mind states.

[Sriram]

Certain types of practice can yield certain classes of mind state; that seems undeniable.  I know what sort of mind state I can acheive with the help of a fine single malt whisky and good log fire. Altering our mind state can alter the way you think and see the world whilst in that state.  It might be beneficial, it might not be, depending on the individual.  I think we need to be cautious about grand claims of objective truth that derive mostly from altered mind states.

For a person who has never ventured into any of these areas personally, you have very strong opinions about them!  Which I think is rather presumptuous. 

[torridon]

For a person who has never ventured into any of these areas personally, you have very strong opinions about them!  Which I think is rather presumptuous.

Oh, many is the time I've enjoyed a glass of whisky.  There are many ways to derive an altered mind state; meditational practices are just one class of methods.  It's a good principal to be wary of projecting personal experience onto some objective true-for-all canvas.

[Sriram]

Oh, many is the time I've enjoyed a glass of whisky.  There are many ways to derive an altered mind state; meditational practices are just one class of methods.  It's a good principal to be wary of projecting personal experience onto some objective true-for-all canvas.

 

[ekim]

(1)The trouble is that there can be such a wide range of attitudes and emotional interpretations towards our experiences that to say that one has achieved some inner 'truth' is really saying very little, except to oneself and people of like mind.
(2)Consider, for instance, Wordsworth's attitude towards nature, fashioned by his childhood experiences in particular. He saw his links with nature as exhilarating, beneficent, awe inspiring and comforting experiences. Now consider Tennyson's attitude towards nature, especially in the poem 'In Memoriam'. which illustrates his doubts and fears and his confusion with a loving god and an impersonal nature.  I just don't think that 'truth' is a particularly appropriate word in this context.

(1)Yes, I would agree with that.  There are no words to describe the 'truth' of inner being and even if there were they would not impart the actuality, which is why there are ways and methods suggested to attain that end for those who have the inclination to follow them. 
(2)The examples you give are their descriptions of the emotional or thoughtful active states of their minds which are relative to their external experiences.  The, so called, spiritual way is centred around conscious inner stillness rather than activity, the 'truth' of which is beyond communicable description.

[Enki]

(1)Yes, I would agree with that.  There are no words to describe the 'truth' of inner being and even if there were they would not impart the actuality, which is why there are ways and methods suggested to attain that end for those who have the inclination to follow them. 
(2)The examples you give are their descriptions of the emotional or thoughtful active states of their minds which are relative to their external experiences.  The, so called, spiritual way is centred around conscious inner stillness rather than activity, the 'truth' of which is beyond communicable description.

Hi Ekim,

I completely accept that there are various techniques which lead to or allow 'inner stillness' as you call it. I have no problem at all with that. I do feel however that many people can find their own path to their own techniques. I feel that I am able to experience at least some of this feeling of inner stillness and general peacefulness in a variety of ways. For instance,I find that I can lose myself completely whilst sitting motionless whilst birding, and can feel very much refreshed(if a little stiff) when I decide to end my self imposed stillness. I would suggest that one of the reasons that coarse fishing is such a vast pastime in this country is that it lends itself to a kind of meditation when the ills of the world disappear for a time by simply concentrating on a float.

What I do find rather disheartening though is the temptation to extend to any type of meditation and feelings of inner peace some sort of idealised interpretation, as, for instance, Sriram did in Post 14, or as does this Orthodox Christian here:

https://sttimothy-toccoa.org/files/Keep-Inner-Stillness.pdf

and claim it as some sort of 'truth'. That's all.

[Sriram]

Hi Ekim,

I completely accept that there are various techniques which lead to or allow 'inner stillness' as you call it. I have no problem at all with that. I do feel however that many people can find their own path to their own techniques. I feel that I am able to experience at least some of this feeling of inner stillness and general peacefulness in a variety of ways. For instance,I find that I can lose myself completely whilst sitting motionless whilst birding, and can feel very much refreshed(if a little stiff) when I decide to end my self imposed stillness. I would suggest that one of the reasons that coarse fishing is such a vast pastime in this country is that it lends itself to a kind of meditation when the ills of the world disappear for a time by simply concentrating on a float.

What I do find rather disheartening though is the temptation to extend to any type of meditation and feelings of inner peace some sort of idealised interpretation, as, for instance, Sriram did in Post 14, or as does this Orthodox Christian here:

https://sttimothy-toccoa.org/files/Keep-Inner-Stillness.pdf

and claim it as some sort of 'truth'. That's all.

Sorry to intrude into your conversation with ekim again.

Stillness and peace are not seen as just mood changes that one needs for relaxation every now and then.  Like taking a holiday from work or something.

Peace and stillness are seen as characteristics of a certain part of ourselves that we call the Higher Self.  We don't just visit the Higher Self at intervals for some peace and quite.  We aim to become the Higher Self itself by eliminating the Lower Self. It is an idealistic goal that spiritual aspirants seek.

[Enki]

Sorry to intrude into your conversation with ekim again.

Stillness and peace are not seen as just mood changes that one needs for relaxation every now and then.  Like taking a holiday from work or something.

Peace and stillness are seen as characteristics of a certain part of ourselves that we call the Higher Self.  We don't just visit the Higher Self at intervals for some peace and quite.  We aim to become the Higher Self itself by eliminating the Lower Self. It is an idealistic goal that spiritual aspirants seek.

No problem, Sriram!

No, I'm not talking about relaxation either, strangely enough. In fact, sometimes it can be the very opposite of relaxation.

As far as your second paragraph goes, I'm sure you see it that way. In fact I would suggest that your ideas bear some relation to Freud's ideas of the id, the ego and the superego. However I much prefer to see myself as an integrated whole. At least that is what I aim for. Horses for courses and all that 

[Sriram]

No problem, Sriram!

No, I'm not talking about relaxation either, strangely enough. In fact, sometimes it can be the very opposite of relaxation.

As far as your second paragraph goes, I'm sure you see it that way. In fact I would suggest that your ideas bear some relation to Freud's ideas of the id, the ego and the superego. However I much prefer to see myself as an integrated whole. At least that is what I aim for. Horses for courses and all that 

enki,

Actually it is the lower self that is segmented and has multiple parts that are at conflict with one another.  That  has developed from our animal nature and tends to run after need fulfillment.

The Higher Self on the other hand is complete and integrated.  Achieving that means achieving what we call (Poorna) or completeness. It is also universal, wise and balanced with no emotional see saw.