Author Topic: Corbyn  (Read 15337 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #200 on: August 30, 2018, 02:11:49 PM »
Well, if prominent anti-Corbyn figures are right wing, and/or support the Tories, that seems relevant.   I don't know anything about Sacks, but his comparison with Powell is barmy.
Yes and what Sacks said was incorrect too.

"It was divisive, hateful and like Powell's speech it undermines the existence of an entire group of British citizens by depicting them as essentially alien.

"We can only judge Jeremy Corbyn by his words and his actions. He has given support to racists, terrorists and dealers of hate who want to kill Jews and remove Israel from the map.

"When he implies that, however long they have lived here, Jews are not fully British, he is using the language of classic pre-war European anti-Semitism."

Jeremy referred to the Zionist activists who came up to speak to Manuel, not to an entire group of British citizens or to Jews.

I think it is important to investigate whether Sacks gives support to an Israeli government that engages in racist acts and policies and who terrorises Palestinian civilians.
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #201 on: August 30, 2018, 02:15:44 PM »
You sure? I read estimates between 40-70 million for the Mongol invasions. What are your sources for the lower estimate?

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll.html
The Dan Carlin podcast on the Mongol Empire. Any estimate has to be taken with a pinch of salt, of course, especially from that time period, so either of us could be right.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #202 on: September 02, 2018, 03:05:48 PM »
Resigning Labour MP's should have done so in 2016.

jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #203 on: September 02, 2018, 07:31:54 PM »
Resigning Labour MP's should have done so in 2016.
Why? The anti Semitism row hadn’t been manufactured back then.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #205 on: September 09, 2018, 12:13:26 PM »
Ooft


https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/howard-jacobson-speech-intelligence-squared-1.469525

I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, just a naive fool. There's also the fact (as Jacobson alludes to) that he never expected to become party leader.
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Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #206 on: September 09, 2018, 12:17:58 PM »
I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, just a naive fool.
I don't think he's either; he is however prey in the same way as so many are on the political left to making the Palestinians perpetual victims and therefore intrinsically worthy of support, and from there the line over which criticism of Israel becomes criticism of Jews starts to become decidedly fuzzy. Israel isn't a Jewish state; it's the Jewish state, as there's only one. It's a pet project of scads of left-leaning people in the West. It borders on a fetish, in fact.
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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #207 on: September 09, 2018, 12:21:05 PM »
I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, just a naive fool. There's also the fact (as Jacobson alludes to) that he never expected to become party leader.

I rate Jacobsen. Watched him pull the rug out from under a Christian friend's faith via a tv show once.

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #208 on: September 09, 2018, 12:30:07 PM »
I don't think he's either; he is however prey in the same way as so many are on the political left to making the Palestinians perpetual victims and therefore intrinsically worthy of support, and from there the line over which criticism of Israel becomes criticism of Jews starts to become decidedly fuzzy. Israel isn't a Jewish state; it's the Jewish state, as there's only one. It's a pet project of scads of left-leaning people in the West. It borders on a fetish, in fact.

Agree with this.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #209 on: September 14, 2018, 01:13:15 PM »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #210 on: September 14, 2018, 02:05:17 PM »
I don't think he's either; he is however prey in the same way as so many are on the political left to making the Palestinians perpetual victims and therefore intrinsically worthy of support, and from there the line over which criticism of Israel becomes criticism of Jews starts to become decidedly fuzzy. Israel isn't a Jewish state; it's the Jewish state, as there's only one. It's a pet project of scads of left-leaning people in the West. It borders on a fetish, in fact.
I don't know about making Palestinians perpetual victims. There are coordinated, strategic plans to highlight and try to alleviate the daily hardships and problems caused by specific Israeli military action or government policies. I would see calling out Israel on racist, discriminatory or brutal policies as no different to calling out any other country on their racist, discriminatory or brutal policies.

While Israel continues to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land and continue to indulge in disproportionately violent attacks on Palestinian civilians, it would be strange not to highlight this. As much as it would be strange not to highlight instances where Palestinian people have victimised Israeli citizens, such as suicide bombings.

What I would say is if Corbyn has not been critical of the suicide bombing then that would be evidence of some kind of bias or prejudice to me.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #211 on: September 14, 2018, 02:19:14 PM »
And off we go again


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45517094
I thought theories about politicians distracting people from or "burying" negative news in this way or trying to get political capital from an issue was a recurring theme in politics - various politicians have been accused of it. Is it antisemitic to raise the possibility that some Jewish politicians might be engaged in it as much as non-Jewish politicians? 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #212 on: September 14, 2018, 02:25:45 PM »
I thought theories about politicians distracting people from or "burying" negative news in this way or trying to get political capital from an issue was a recurring theme in politics - various politicians have been accused of it. Is it antisemitic to raise the possibility that some Jewish politicians might be engaged in it as much as non-Jewish politicians?
So anyone suggesting anti semitism in the Labour party is either an Israeli govt politician or a dupe of them?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #213 on: September 14, 2018, 03:46:24 PM »
So anyone suggesting anti semitism in the Labour party is either an Israeli govt politician or a dupe of them?
That wasn't my point. What I was asking was: if non-Jewish politicians are also routinely accused of trying to bury or distract people from negative news by creating political rows or controversy or by trying to capitalise on political rows, is it antisemitic to make the same accusations against politicians who happen to be Jewish?

On the issue of lobbying, no I don't think everyone who makes accusations of antisemitism is an Israeli politician or a dupe of them. I think a lot of them genuinely believe there are pockets of antisemitism or  supporters feel they have experienced antisemitism themselves. That doesn't mean that some Israeli politicians can't capitalise on this or ask people in the UK with whom they have links, to escalate accusations into a bigger row to create negative publicity and to keep up the pressure on UK politicians to try and achieve certain political goals, which might include distracting the media from focusing on other issues.

I remember going to a couple of talks at the House of Commons around the time of the 2nd Palestinian uprising (Intifada), which was attended by Palestinian spokespersons and negotiators. They were very clear on violence not being a solution to the situation. One of the requests that was made at the meeting though was that pro-Palestinian people in the UK should act in a more coordinated, effective way by copying the tactics of the pro-Israeli lobby in the UK or in the US. At another meeting people spoke about the tactics of AIPAC and resolved to learn from them. So people would sign up to receive an email where they were asked to contact their MPs and the media to protest about statements and stories that were unfavourable to the Palestinians. There was admiration expressed for the quick and effective way the pro-Israeli lobby mobilised supporters in Britain or the US to jump all over journalists and politicians who were unfavourable to Israel and demand answers, partly to educate but partly to try to make those politicians or journalists think twice before saying unfavourable things about Israel. Supporters would be asked to include key phrases when contacting journalists or politicians on the basis that repetition would make the argument more effective.   

I even tried it myself - a few days after the meeting in the House of Commons, I got an email about a negative story and I called up Reuters, not expecting to get through to an actual journalist - it was very strange being put on speakerphone during an editorial meeting at Reuters, while I gave them my opinion on why their reporting on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict was biased against the Palestinians. They said they had had a few phone calls and emails that morning from various people making that same point and had finally decided to actually get a caller on the speakerphone so everyone in that team could hear, as they had not experienced this kind of a response to previous stories they had run. I didn't have time to get more involved but I know this ended up being a massive coordinated campaign aimed at Muslims to encourage them to become more politically active in a similar way to the pro-Israeli lobby. Not long after I started hearing the new phrase "the Muslim vote" being uttered in the media by politicians.

If, as it appears, this creation of "political rows" is part of the political tactics that some people employ, I am not really seeing what the issue is if Mark Serwotka wonders if this is is the case in relation to the antisemitism row.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #214 on: September 26, 2018, 04:25:28 PM »
The Labour party conference seems to be highly critical of Israel so am expecting more accusations of antisemitism. Corbyn repeated the statement he made when he visited Jordan a few months ago that a Labour government would recognise the Palestinian state. That certainly got a lot of applause at the conference, and lots of Palestinian flag waving in the audience, though not sure how likely it is that Corbyn's Labour party would get elected.

There was also a motion passed at the Labour conference calling for arms sales to Israel to be banned if Labour got into power. This is a nice gesture, but I don't think Israel buys that much from Britain. Corbyn has in the past said he would stop Britain's arms sales to Saudi Arabia. That generates far more money for the British economy, which may explain the failure by groups to stop the government's continued sales to a regime that uses them to bomb Yemen and Bahrain, resulting in many civilian deaths and injuries.

Not surprising then that Avi Gabbay, the leader of Israel's Labour Party (the main opposition party in Israel) suspended all formal relations with Corbyn a few months ago, though it continues to maintain relations with pro-Israel groups in the British Labour Party.

While some people have been branding Corbyn an antisemite, others have branded Gabbay as racist for some of his statements to the Media about Palestinians, which undermines various attempts in Britain to portray Israel's Labour Party as progressive or moderate allies for peace.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israel-palestine-labor-party-gabbay-netanyahu-settlements-two-state-bds-movement-a8005136.html

These 2 Labour leaders are unlikely to ever see eye to eye on the Palestinian issue.   
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jakswan

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #215 on: October 15, 2018, 12:34:57 PM »
From Brexit thread so posting here, the view that Corbyn would be worse for UK than any Brexit outcome question was asked:-

Why?

Labour under Corbyn would leave us with a massive deficit.

This is from the IFS.

Increasing rates will raise less revenue in the medium to long run because firms would respond by investing less in the UK. This in turn would depress economic activity and lead to fewer jobs and lower wages. There is a very high degree of uncertainty about how large these effects are but estimates suggest that they may be substantial. The potential size of these effects is an indication of why the OECD and others judge corporation tax to have a particularly damaging effect on economic growth.

https://election2017.ifs.org.uk/article/labour-s-reversal-of-corporate-tax-cuts-would-raise-substantial-sums-but-comes-with-important-trade-offs
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #216 on: October 16, 2018, 01:54:32 PM »
That wasn't my point. What I was asking was: if non-Jewish politicians are also routinely accused of trying to bury or distract people from negative news by creating political rows or controversy or by trying to capitalise on political rows, is it antisemitic to make the same accusations against politicians who happen to be Jewish?

On the issue of lobbying, no I don't think everyone who makes accusations of antisemitism is an Israeli politician or a dupe of them. I think a lot of them genuinely believe there are pockets of antisemitism or  supporters feel they have experienced antisemitism themselves. That doesn't mean that some Israeli politicians can't capitalise on this or ask people in the UK with whom they have links, to escalate accusations into a bigger row to create negative publicity and to keep up the pressure on UK politicians to try and achieve certain political goals, which might include distracting the media from focusing on other issues.

I remember going to a couple of talks at the House of Commons around the time of the 2nd Palestinian uprising (Intifada), which was attended by Palestinian spokespersons and negotiators. They were very clear on violence not being a solution to the situation. One of the requests that was made at the meeting though was that pro-Palestinian people in the UK should act in a more coordinated, effective way by copying the tactics of the pro-Israeli lobby in the UK or in the US. At another meeting people spoke about the tactics of AIPAC and resolved to learn from them. So people would sign up to receive an email where they were asked to contact their MPs and the media to protest about statements and stories that were unfavourable to the Palestinians. There was admiration expressed for the quick and effective way the pro-Israeli lobby mobilised supporters in Britain or the US to jump all over journalists and politicians who were unfavourable to Israel and demand answers, partly to educate but partly to try to make those politicians or journalists think twice before saying unfavourable things about Israel. Supporters would be asked to include key phrases when contacting journalists or politicians on the basis that repetition would make the argument more effective.   

I even tried it myself - a few days after the meeting in the House of Commons, I got an email about a negative story and I called up Reuters, not expecting to get through to an actual journalist - it was very strange being put on speakerphone during an editorial meeting at Reuters, while I gave them my opinion on why their reporting on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict was biased against the Palestinians. They said they had had a few phone calls and emails that morning from various people making that same point and had finally decided to actually get a caller on the speakerphone so everyone in that team could hear, as they had not experienced this kind of a response to previous stories they had run. I didn't have time to get more involved but I know this ended up being a massive coordinated campaign aimed at Muslims to encourage them to become more politically active in a similar way to the pro-Israeli lobby. Not long after I started hearing the new phrase "the Muslim vote" being uttered in the media by politicians.

If, as it appears, this creation of "political rows" is part of the political tactics that some people employ, I am not really seeing what the issue is if Mark Serwotka wonders if this is is the case in relation to the antisemitism row.

Actually, I think a lot of reporting in the UK is biased in favour of the Palestinians. We hear all about the Israeli attacks on Palestine, but rarely about Palestinian attacks on Israel. We gloss over the fact that Palestinian society is fairly regressive. If you are gay, or a woman, or you don't follow the state religion, you are definitely better off in Israel than in the Palestinian areas. We don't hear about any of that.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #217 on: October 24, 2018, 06:47:55 PM »
Actually, I think a lot of reporting in the UK is biased in favour of the Palestinians. We hear all about the Israeli attacks on Palestine, but rarely about Palestinian attacks on Israel. We gloss over the fact that Palestinian society is fairly regressive. If you are gay, or a woman, or you don't follow the state religion, you are definitely better off in Israel than in the Palestinian areas. We don't hear about any of that.
That was my point - it wasn't reported that way before - it was reported in a way that was more one-sided to the Israelis. But a coordinated campaign by supporters of the Palestinians in the UK appeared to change the way the media reported on the situation. So lobbying campaigns by ordinary members of the public seems to work in challenging the way the media reports things.

I don't think it is glossed over that Palestinian society can be regressive - it's just that there are only so many words you can put in a news report and the way sections of Palestinian society treat minorities is not always relevant to the immediate news story of a bomb, or the IDF firing on unarmed civilians protesting Israel bulldozing their homes and building Israeli settlements on stolen Palestinian land.

Also, when making a comparison between Israeli and Palestinian society, I think people will expect people in an area under brutal military occupation to react differently to the people who are part of the nation doing the occupying. There is also a wide disparity in terms of poverty between Israel and Palestine and schooling in the Palestinian state has been severely disrupted and poverty and limited education can be one of the factors for a society not becoming more tolerant.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israel-palestine-conflict-universities-education-students-gaza-middle-east-a8594446.html

I would have to look at actual statistics comparing Palestinian and Israeli society and see if sociologists have identified causes for those statistics.

I know there was a UN report that apportioned some of the blame for domestic violence in the Palestinian state on the Israeli occupation.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Israel-slams-UN-report-blaming-it-for-domestic-abuse-of-Palestinian-women-447198
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #218 on: January 11, 2019, 06:26:15 PM »
Some interesting points but at the heart is surely Denis McShane not knowing what Labour is for!


https://prospect.org/article/british-labour’s-self-inflicted-marginalization?fbclid=IwAR2HSu5zrTy5yB9qrY79Ey9r0tAqJ55IAAiUm6_7oFAbw9nVqXsDPrbUK5U

jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #219 on: January 12, 2019, 12:50:49 PM »
Some interesting points but at the heart is surely Denis McShane not knowing what Labour is for!


https://prospect.org/article/british-labour’s-self-inflicted-marginalization?fbclid=IwAR2HSu5zrTy5yB9qrY79Ey9r0tAqJ55IAAiUm6_7oFAbw9nVqXsDPrbUK5U

Link that hasn't been munged by the quote in the URL

https://prospect.org/article/british-labour’s-self-inflicted-marginalization
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