Corbyn

[Nearly Sane]

If there was an obvious alternative,  there would be an alternative.   But who?

In a sense, the who is not the issue here. The labour Party is currently in a battle, which allows the chaotic govt to not be opposed properly, about what is it for.

[Rhiannon]

Why should it, though? There was a leadership election and he won by a landslide (59.5%). There was a second one not long after and he picked up an even greater majority (61.8%). Labour membership has never been higher*; if my entirely anecdotal experience on Twitter is anything to go by, membership is climbing because people are seeing through the anti-Semitism smears as the politically-orchestrated campaign to get rid of him that it is.

* 552,000 as of January this year, the most recent figures I could find. The Tories stand at 124,000. Lib Dems probably about 12, I imagine.

Or people want to think he isn't really antisemitic and it's all just a cunning plot because he's lovely Jeremy who doesn't eat meat and is very peace loving and makes us all feel lovely.

And Jewish Labour supporters who are withdrawing their support are being told to shut the fuck up because they don't know what they are talking about. It's getting embarrassing.

[Shaker]

If there was an obvious alternative,  there would be an alternative. But who?

There isn't. The people who (a) want him as leader, (b) are able to make him leader and (c) actually did make him leader, twice - the membership - are presumably happy with him and don't want an alternative.

[Nearly Sane]

Or people want to think he isn't really antisemitic and it's all just a cunning plot because he's lovely Jeremy who doesn't eat meat and is very peace loving and makes us all feel lovely.

And Jewish Labour supporters who are withdrawing their support are being told to shut the fuck up because they don't know what they are talking about. It's getting embarrassing.

That's only the MI-5 fake accounts doing that!

[wigginhall]

In a sense, the who is not the issue here. The labour Party is currently in a battle, which allows the chaotic govt to not be opposed properly, about what is it for.

Well, I think the who is also an issue.   The obvious alternative is Starmer, but will he get support? No idea.  The left might walk away. 

[Shaker]

Or people want to think he isn't really antisemitic and it's all just a cunning plot because he's lovely Jeremy who doesn't eat meat and is very peace loving and makes us all feel lovely.

And Jewish Labour supporters who are withdrawing their support are being told to shut the fuck up because they don't know what they are talking about. It's getting embarrassing.

Which Jewish Labour supporters?

https://tinyurl.com/y99mynwb ('Rebuttals' section).

There's certainly something embarrassing about it all; though I would put the embarrassment elsewhere.

[Rhiannon]

Which Jewish Labour supporters?

https://tinyurl.com/y99mynwb ('Rebuttals' section).

Well my friends aside, what about the chap in NS's article?

I really don't like people wanting to leave this country because of what is happening with our political system, whether they are EU members or Jews. Increasingly Labour looks like it doesn't give a fuck. We expect np difference from the Right, but Labour? Really?

[wigginhall]

I would think that pro-Israel people are voting Tory, aren't they?

[Rhiannon]

I would think that pro-Israel people are voting Tory, aren't they?

I think few people give a shit outside of the Jewish population, who - come on - vote left.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, I think the who is also an issue.   The obvious alternative is Starmer, but will he get support? No idea.  The left might walk away.

He's not going to get elected by the membership. Shaker and Rhiannon are right in that I don't see any candidate with a chance of winning in the current membership against Corbyn. If there were some reason that he decided to stand down, illness for example, then I would expect McDonnell to win easily were he to stand. That doesn't get away from the fact that the current biggest battle the Labour Party is fighting is with itself,

[Shaker]

That doesn't get away from the fact that the current biggest battle the Labour Party is fighting is with itself,

In a different area that's been the case since the 1990s, though, when people who belong in the Tory party thought that they should be in the Labour party.

[Nearly Sane]

In a different area that's been the case since the 1990s, though, when people who belong in the Tory party thought that they should be in the Labour party.

It's always the case to a greater or lessor extent in large parties, and indeed even in minuscule parties but it's allowing a govt in disarray currently to have a free ride.

[Nearly Sane]

I would think that pro-Israel people are voting Tory, aren't they?

I can only cover this anecdotally but I've noticed a number of Jewish friends in the Labour Party moving almost without thinking to a more pro Israel tone of late because they seem to fear that their previous support for Palestinian rights, is being used in an anti semitic way. Perhaps it's just part of a generalised move to more extreme positions that seems to me to be happening.

[Shaker]

It's always the case to a greater or lessor extent in large parties, and indeed even in minuscule parties but it's allowing a govt in disarray currently to have a free ride.

Absolutely true - which makes the shit-stirring of Hodge and her cronies all the more unforgivable.

[Rhiannon]

Absolutely true - which makes the shit-stirring of Hodge and her cronies all the more unforgivable.

Why single her out?

[Nearly Sane]

Absolutely true - which makes the shit-stirring of Hodge and her cronies all the more unforgivable.

That, of course, assumes the motivations of everyone who might criticise is then shit stirring. It's a dysfunctional party that doesn't know what it's for, and while that continues, I can see no reason why anyone should vote for it. (that it's not unique in being in that position isn't a big recommendation in my view)

[Shaker]

Why single her out?

I didn't. I would have singled her out if I'd said "Hodge" and left it at that. What I actually wrote was "Hodge and her cronies" - in other words, those of the same ilk who want their twice-democratically-elected leader out of the job.

[Shaker]

That, of course, assumes the motivations of everyone who might criticise is then shit stirring.

Which to me seems self-evident. It isn't about 'criticism' any more and hasn't been in a long time.

It's a dysfunctional party that doesn't know what it's for

The manifesto states what it's for. That's the rationale of having a manifesto. It's the Blairites in a democratic socialist party that don't seem to know what they're for.

[Rhiannon]

I didn't. I would have singled her out if I'd said "Hodge" and left it at that. What I actually wrote was "Hodge and her cronies" - in other words, those of the same ilk who want their twice-democratically-elected leader out of the job.

Could that not be because on Hodge's part she sees him as antisemitic?

[Rhiannon]

Which Jewish Labour supporters?

https://tinyurl.com/y99mynwb ('Rebuttals' section).

There's certainly something embarrassing about it all; though I would put the embarrassment elsewhere.

How many of those rebuttals come post the emergence of this speech?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-zionists-2013-speech

And In her 2016 report on antisemitism in the Labour party, Shami Chakrabarti wrote: “Crucially, I have heard testimony and heard for myself first hand, the way in which the word ‘Zionist’ has been used personally, abusively, or as a euphemism for ‘Jew’, even in relation to some people with no stated position or even a critical position on the historic formation or development of modern Israel. This has clearly happened so often over a number of years as to raise some alarm bells in Jewish communities.” She concluded: “My advice to critics of the Israeli state and/or government is to use the term ‘Zionist’ advisedly, carefully and never euphemistically or as part of personal abuse.”

[Shaker]

Could that not be because on Hodge's part she sees him as antisemitic?

What she sees and what is actually the case are at variance. Example: people - in my experience it tends to be older people - experience or merely hear about one example of crime and think that crime is at record levels. Their perception is of sky-high crime even when the evidence shows the opposite. Perception trumps reality.

The alternative scenario is that she and her fellow travellers don't actually believe that Corbyn is personally anti-Semitic but they'll use it as a stick to beat him with anyway in their efforts to unseat him.

[Rhiannon]

What she sees and what is actually the case are at variance. Example: people - in my experience it tends to be older people - experience or merely hear about one example of crime and think that crime is at record levels. Their perception is of sky-high crime even when the evidence shows the opposite. Perception trumps reality.

The alternative scenario is that she and her fellow travellers don't actually believe that Corbyn is personally anti-Semitic but they'll use it as a stick to beat him with anyway in their efforts to unseat him.

And yet she is Jewish. If his comments were about black people, and Hodge were black, would it be equally acceptable to dismiss her objections as opportunism?

[Shaker]

And yet she is Jewish. If his comments were about black people

- which they wouldn't be, so this smacks of whataboutery -

and Hodge were black, would it be equally acceptable to dismiss her objections as opportunism?

It wouldn't change the point about perception of x not necessarily bearing any relationship in reality to x. In modern times accusing someone of being racist is among the worst slurs you can throw against anyone. It can be grounded in fact - i.e. when somebody actually is racist - or it can be a cynical ploy aimed at character assassination, an ad hom.. Opportunism, as you put it.

[Nearly Sane]

And yet she is Jewish. If his comments were about black people, and Hodge were black, would it be equally acceptable to dismiss her objections as opportunism?

To be fair, there is a large amount of jewsplaining going on on both sides. Michael Rosen has been continually told he's a 'useful Jew' for defending Corbyn.

[Shaker]

To be fair, there is a large amount of jewsplaining going on on both sides. Michael Rosen has been continually told he's a 'useful Jew' for defending Corbyn.

Indeed;

‘As-a-Jew’, ‘useful Jewish idiot’, ‘barely a Jew’, ‘wrong Jew’, ‘bad Jew’, ‘poodle Jew’...

Quotes from his Twitter feed.