Author Topic: Corbyn  (Read 15362 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #125 on: August 28, 2018, 02:00:54 PM »
Grand.

In this case too, or only in others?
No, that's not what I'm suggesting.
Isn't it? In what way? When you wrote

'In fact, it could reasonably be argued that while minority groups of whatever kind - religious/ethic/sexual or whatever - might be more alert to discriminatory actions and language, the discrimination radar might be so hyper-sensitive that it sees bigotry where none exists.'

What were you suggesting about how we treat claims of bigotry from minority groups?

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2018, 02:02:40 PM »
Exactly! There wasn't; there was only (allegedly) someone out of control throwing around slurs in the heat of the moment, and yet (allegedly) being furious and calling someone an anti-Semite and a fucking racist is somehow magically indicative of having the truth on your side.

Which wasn't what I said.I did not use the term 'truth', I said 'genuine feeling'. Labour MPs have stated that Hodge was furious (are they also making up shit?); unless she is an actress worthy of a BAFTA let's assume she was genuinely angry. That anger may be misplaced, and does not indicate truth (something you just made up) but also it does not indicate your cold, calculated plotting.

Why did you single out Hodge and not those others who are critical of Corbyn?

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #127 on: August 28, 2018, 02:04:20 PM »
And no one has said that the truth is magically on their side by swearing. Just some misrepresentation to add to your non sequitur
To me it's pretty clearly implied in Rhiannon's #107:

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I actually find the evidence from Labour MPs that she was 'furious' and acted in anger more likely to be indicative of genuine feeling on her part.

and it's Jesuitical evasiveness to pretend otherwise.

What I haven't gone into yet is why "genuine feeling" is thought of as the benchmark of anything. Let us suppose the accounts are accurate and Hodge was genuinely (presumably as opposed to only apparently) furious. So what? What does this point to? Does losing her rag add to her views of Corbyn and criticism of his leadership? How does it?

Oh, and it still isn't a non sequitur.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #128 on: August 28, 2018, 02:07:11 PM »
Which wasn't what I said.I did not use the term 'truth', I said 'genuine feeling'. Labour MPs have stated that Hodge was furious (are they also making up shit?); unless she is an actress worthy of a BAFTA let's assume she was genuinely angry. That anger may be misplaced, and does not indicate truth (something you just made up) but also it does not indicate your cold, calculated plotting.
It could, of course be any of those. How would I know? I base my opinions on what evidence I can gather.

Quote
Why did you single out Hodge and not those others who are critical of Corbyn?

Quote from: Shaker
I didn't. I would have singled her out if I'd said "Hodge" and left it at that. What I actually wrote was "Hodge and her cronies" - in other words, those of the same ilk who want their twice-democratically-elected leader out of the job.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2018, 02:08:41 PM »
To me it's pretty clearly implied in Rhiannon's #107:

and it's Jesuitical evasiveness to pretend otherwise.

What I haven't gone into yet is why "genuine feeling" is thought of as the benchmark of anything. Let us suppose the accounts are accurate and Hodge was genuinely (presumably as opposed to only apparently) furious. So what? What does this point to? Does losing her rag add to her views of Corbyn and criticism of his leadership? How does it?

Oh, and it still isn't a non sequitur.
No, she suggested that it is more likely that someone being emotional about something is not dissembling about their motivation. Nothing about magic, nothing about certainty.

No one has claimed it as a benchmark just asked you why it might be useful in determining the truth of someone's opinion. No one said that it adds to whether she is right.

And sarcasm, irony or synecdoche about points not made is a non sequitur.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2018, 02:09:03 PM »
What were you suggesting about how we treat claims of bigotry from minority groups?
That we treat them on the basis of whatever evidence there is and don't place "genuine feeling" (which seems to mean losing your rag) over it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2018, 02:10:18 PM »
No, she suggested that it is more likely that someone being emotional about something is not dissembling about their motivation. Nothing about magic, nothing about certainty.

No one has claimed it as a benchmark just asked you why it might be useful in determining the truth of someone's opinion.
I don't think it's useful in the slightest. Rhiannon appears to and I think she's utterly wrong to do so.

I wouldn't say it's a salutary trait in an elected representative in a discussion with their leader, would you?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2018, 02:11:23 PM »
I don't think it's useful in the slightest. Rhiannon appears to and I think she's utterly wrong to do so.

That's a wilful misrepresentation of what I said.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2018, 02:13:58 PM »
I don't think it's useful in the slightest. Rhiannon appears to and I think she's utterly wrong to do so.
I don't think Rhiannon has suggested anything about 'usefulness'. Nice combination of misrepresentation and evasion though

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2018, 02:14:18 PM »
That's a wilful misrepresentation of what I said.
You might feel that it's misrepresentation but it's not wilful on my part. I'm basing my replies on what's been written. Why did you bring Hodge's "genuine feeling" into it? What does that demonstrate? What does it serve?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2018, 02:14:50 PM »
I don't think Rhiannon has suggested anything about 'usefulness'.
Then why bring Hodge's "genuine feeling" into it?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #136 on: August 28, 2018, 02:15:42 PM »
Then why bring Hodge's "genuine feeling" into it?
I think you will find that was up with your stirring up comment.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #137 on: August 28, 2018, 02:20:11 PM »
You might feel that it's misrepresentation but it's not wilful on my part. I'm basing my replies on what's been written. Why did you bring Hodge's "genuine feeling" into it? What does that demonstrate? What does it serve?

You think she is merely 'stirring up' I see evidence - not proof - that points to genuine feeling. Do you see? It's a counter-argument to the point that you made. Without much evidence for that, if we are honest.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #138 on: August 28, 2018, 02:21:50 PM »
You think she is merely 'stirring up' I see evidence - not proof - that points to genuine feeling. Do you see? It's a counter-argument to the point that you made.
What I don't see is what Hodge's feelings being genuine has to do with anything.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #139 on: August 28, 2018, 02:23:27 PM »
What I don't see is what Hodge's feelings being genuine has to do with anything.

Because it negates your view of her as a plotting shit stirrer.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #140 on: August 28, 2018, 02:31:04 PM »
Because it negates your view of her as a plotting shit stirrer.
No it doesn't. See #111.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #141 on: August 28, 2018, 02:33:54 PM »
No it doesn't. See #111.

Which was a concession that you made only after it had been pointed out to you that her feelings appeared to be genuine. Before that you just described her as a 'stirrer', along with her cronies, with no evidence and no such qualification as to her possible feeling and motivation.


Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #142 on: August 28, 2018, 02:37:27 PM »
Which was a concession that you made only after it had been pointed out to you that her feelings appeared to be genuine.
Genuineness of feeling is irrelevant. I don't treat feelings as a reliable guide to anything.

Quote
Before that you just described her as a 'stirrer', along with her cronies, with no evidence and no such qualification as to her possible feeling and motivation.
I believe that the evidence is in her activities these past few weeks to be found in any media platform; that's to say, what's been reported as to her behaviour. I'm not claiming that the reports are accurate, but they're all we have to go on and my conclusions are based on that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #143 on: August 28, 2018, 02:41:31 PM »
Genuineness of feeling is irrelevant. I don't treat feelings as a reliable guide to anything.
I believe that the evidence is in her activities these past few weeks to be found in any media platform; that's to say, what's been reported as to her behaviour. I'm not claiming that the reports are accurate, but they're all we have to go on and my conclusions are based on that.

No, feelings are often absolute bollockry when it comes to judging the accuracy of any situation. That doesn't change though that she may have been genuinely angry rather than coldly and opportunistically plotting.

All I've seen are reports of Hodge being angry, and standing by being angry, and then being told that actually it was all forgotten about.

I'm still interested in why you've focussed on Hodge, and not some others who most definitely are plotting to oust Corbyn. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 02:44:18 PM by Rhiannon »

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #144 on: August 28, 2018, 03:30:30 PM »
John McDonnell sees genuine anger born of misunderstanding, not plotting and shit stirring.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-hodge-jeremy-corbyn-antisemtisim-labour-party-john-mdonnell-mp-a8462741.html

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #145 on: August 28, 2018, 03:37:00 PM »
No, feelings are often absolute bollockry when it comes to judging the accuracy of any situation. That doesn't change though that she may have been genuinely angry rather than coldly and opportunistically plotting.
Being genuinely angry is no indicator much less guarantor that what you're angry about is rationally justified though. Anger is very often - I would say more often than not - an irrational emotion itself. It's possible to be legitimately and rationally angry - at injustice or suffering for example - but the descriptions of Hodge's behaviour suggest someone irrationally out of control engaged in a one-sided slagging contest with in effect their boss.

My perception of cynical opportunistic plotting is based partly on such evidence as to her behaviour as we have but also timing. This was identified by NS pages ago (#86). We have a government in disarray described somewhere or other (I forget) a few days ago as the most shambolic government we've ever known*. There's more than enough to hammer the Tories into the ground on as far as Brisbane, but instead we're seeing one would-be smear and slur after another, one more accusation of Corbyn as an anti-Semite/traitor/terrorist sympathiser dribbling out every few days. These attempts at undermining Corbyn have been matters of public record for years, because they're based on photographs and recordings made years ago. And yet said photos and recordings, floating around in the ether for 3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10 years or more, are all coming along like buses right now, piling up like a multiple car-crash on the motorway. That's sufficient to leave me in no real doubt that it's a deliberate and orchestrated campaign not merely by a largely right-wing-dominated print media but by his ideological opponents in the party that he leads, even though he's true to the historical vision, the aims, goals and principles of the Labour Party and they're not.

Quote
I'm still interested in why you've focussed on Hodge, and not some others who most definitely are plotting to oust Corbyn.
I'm not focussed on Hodge in particular to the exclusion of all others, hence why I added: "... and her cronies". She was no more than the first example that sprang to mind while I was writing of the kind of Blairites in the PLP who want nothing more than to see Corbyn gone over the hills and far away.

That she's the only one to my knowledge alleged to have called Corbyn an anti-Semite and a fucking racist to his face isn't incidental, though.

* Not that I set too much store by that; almost any government according to its detractors is the worst one we've ever had until the next one.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 03:48:04 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #146 on: August 28, 2018, 03:38:00 PM »
John McDonnell sees genuine anger born of misunderstanding, not plotting and shit stirring.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-hodge-jeremy-corbyn-antisemtisim-labour-party-john-mdonnell-mp-a8462741.html
Bless his cotton socks.

Apparently I'm vastly more cynical than John McDonnell.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #147 on: August 28, 2018, 03:39:54 PM »
Bless his cotton socks.

Apparently I'm vastly more cynical than John McDonnell.

And which one of the two of you knows Hodge, has spoken to Hodge, and has a personal involvement in the incident, and which one is relying on the internet?

Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #148 on: August 28, 2018, 03:42:09 PM »
Being genuinely angry is no indicator much less guarantor that what you're angry about is rationally justified though. Anger is very often - I would say more often than not - an irrational emotion itself. It's possible to be legitimately and rationally angry - at injustice or suffering for example - but the descriptions of Hodge's behaviour suggest someone irrationally out of control engaged in a one-sided slagging contest with in effect their boss.

My perception of cynical opportunistic plotting is based partly on such evidence as to her behaviour as we have but also timing. This was identified by NS pages ago. We have a government in disarray described somewhere or other (I forget) a few days ago as the most shambolic government we've ever known*. There's more than enough to hammer the Tories into the ground on as far as Brisbane, but instead we're seeing one would-be smear and slur after another, one more accusation of Corbyn as an anti-Semite/traitor/terrorist sympathiser dribbling out every few days. These attempts at undermining Corbyn have been matters of public record for years, because they're based on photographs and recordings made years ago. And yet said photos and recordings, floating around in the ether for 3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10 years or more, are all coming along like buses right now, piling up like a multiple car-crash on the motorway. That's sufficient to leave me in no real doubt that it's a deliberate and orchestrated campaign not merely by a largely right-wing-dominated print media but by his ideological opponents in the party that he leads, even though he's true to the historical vision, the aims, goals and principles of the Labour Party and they're not.
I'm not focussed on Hodge in particular to the exclusion of all others, hence why I added: "... and her cronies". She was no more than the first example that sprang to mind while I was writing of the kind of Blairites in the PLP who want nothing more than to see Corbyn gone over the hills and far away.

That she's the only one to my knowledge alleged to have called Corbyn an anti-Semite and a fucking racist to his face isn't incidental, though.

* Not that I set too much store by that; almost any government according to its detractors is the worst one we've ever had until the next one.

I was going to reply but I got to 'slagging contest with in effect their boss' and gave up for laughing.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #149 on: August 28, 2018, 03:45:25 PM »
And which one of the two of you knows Hodge, has spoken to Hodge, and has a personal involvement in the incident, and which one is relying on the internet?
I certainly don't know her and haven't spoken to her, but there's nothing in the article that indicates that McDonnell had any personal involvement in the incident itself - unless you mean after the fact.

Aren't you relying on the internet when you surmise that Hodge's outburst was based on genuine feeling?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.