Author Topic: Corbyn  (Read 15373 times)

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #175 on: August 28, 2018, 04:30:40 PM »
And again the reasoning for raising it has been covered many times including the post that raised it - why are you indulging in further misrepresentation by pretending it hasn't?
I'm not pretending when I say that nobody has yet demonstrated why Hodge's barney with Corbyn being based on "genuine feeling" has any relevance to anything at all. It's a bizarre, random comment not connected to anything relevant that I can see.

What it looks like is an attempt to say that if Hodge's outburst was based on "genuine feeling" then it's somehow more legitimate or at least more likely to be so. "Genuine" is a positive word. It's a term of approbation. If you want to buy a Rembrandt, or are handed a £10 note in the shops, you want the genuine article. Not a fake, the genuine thing.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:34:29 PM by Shaker »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #176 on: August 28, 2018, 04:33:27 PM »
Nope - that was what #145 was for (and a few others).
The swearing part being the one factor in all this that Hodge actually addressed. Allegedly calling the leader of her party a racist and anti-Semite was apparently OK but calling him a fucking racist was over the line.
Not sure why you are saying Nope. Did you portray the shit stirring accusation as certain? Yes. That you have made some arguments about why you think it doesn't remove your portrayal of it as certain.

Not sure what the relevance is about Hodge not arguing that she didn't call him an anti Semite. Are you saying that simply because she did it shows her to be shit stirring? How would you then challenge someone who you thought was being anti semitic?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #177 on: August 28, 2018, 04:35:03 PM »
I'm not pretending when I say that nobody has yet demonstrated why Hodge's barney with Corbyn being based on "genuine feeling" has any relevance to anything at all. It's a bizarre, random comment not connected to anything relevant that I can see.
Again it appears as if you need to misrepresent what is being said. Surely you understand that there is a difference between someone making an accusation that they don't believe to be true, and one that they do?

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #178 on: August 28, 2018, 04:38:57 PM »
Again it appears as if you need to misrepresent what is being said. Surely you understand that there is a difference between someone making an accusation that they don't believe to be true, and one that they do?
I understand that genuineness of feeling amounts to three quarters of two thirds of fuck all when it comes to being factually accurate. Rhiannon has agreed as much.

I would go further and reiterate that an accusation made in temper is on balance less likely to be soundly based given that anger is frequently an irrational emotion. I automatically trust a shouted accusation spat out in temper less than a sober, evidence-based case. Who has never said something they didn't actually mean in the heat of the moment?

I also understand that the estimation of Hodge's genuineness is based on third-hand reports - the alleged opinions of those there at the time.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:42:04 PM by Shaker »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #179 on: August 28, 2018, 05:25:39 PM »
Well my friends aside, what about the chap in NS's article?

I really don't like people wanting to leave this country because of what is happening with our political system, whether they are EU members or Jews. Increasingly Labour looks like it doesn't give a fuck. We expect np difference from the Right, but Labour? Really?
If people want to leave the country because they buy into a particular narrative where they are the victims in all of this, not much anyone can do about it. I am not going to agree to believe something I don't believe to be true e.g. that Corbyn is antisemitic in order to stop them leaving the country - because in my opinion integrity is more important than people feeling unwelcome or leaving the country.

Are there any media articles where those feeling unwelcome and wanting to leave England express sympathy for the the Palestinian people feeling unwelcome and victimised by their illegal occupiers? I haven't looked but I hope there are. I see sympathy expressed for Corbyn and the Palestinians coming from certain sections of the Jewish community in Israel.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #180 on: August 28, 2018, 05:37:45 PM »
And yet she is Jewish. If his comments were about black people, and Hodge were black, would it be equally acceptable to dismiss her objections as opportunism?
I don't think it is the same. Corbyn was talking about a political difference of belief in 2013 regarding the Palestinian ambassador's speech about the history of Palestine and the criticism of this speech by some members of the audience who expressed a specific pro-Israel narrative, whom Corbyn then labelled as Zionist activists.

Holding a political opinion or belief and arguing or "berating" a speaker you disagree with is very different from having a particular pigment to your skin. I really don't see the problem with being "othered" based on your political opinion - politics is all about "othering" people who don't share your particular belief.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #181 on: August 28, 2018, 05:42:22 PM »
I'm sure that that's exactly what it looks like, yes.

Thoughtful, considered criticism would have been given a free pass, certainly by me. Calling Corbyn (it has been alleged) an "anti-Semite" and a "fucking racist" doesn't meet my criteria for thoughtful, considered criticism.
I hold the same view when posters start calling other posters names on here - no evidence of thoughtful, considered criticism. Just as easy to dismiss those posts as to dismiss Hodge's unedifying rant.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #182 on: August 28, 2018, 05:58:17 PM »
Are you just deliberately ignoring the posts made on this point? No one other than you when you have continually misrepresented posts said anything about it making the accusation true, Rather repeatedly pointed out that it's about whether it was more likely to be a genuine statement of feelings as opposed to some deliberate shit stirring. Which is what the post you replied to originally with your misrepresentation stated.
Maybe it started off as genuine feeling based on a misunderstanding and then developed into more of a confirmation bias where the mind becomes closed to benign alternatives because it is useful to the "cause" to keep being angry and feeling victimised.

The "cause" being that various people want to get rid of Corbyn - for a variety of political reasons, which may include, but is not limited to, being too pro-Palestinian in his views.
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #183 on: August 28, 2018, 06:54:22 PM »

Holding a political opinion or belief and arguing or "berating" a speaker you disagree with is very different from having a particular pigment to your skin. I really don't see the problem with being "othered" based on your political opinion

The problem is that "othering" people doesn't stop them for voting for things you don't like. In fact it makes them more determined to shove your ideals up your arse by voting against them.

Edited:

Quote
politics is all about "othering" people who don't share your particular belief.
So it seems but it should be about persuading them to see things your way.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #184 on: August 28, 2018, 07:26:53 PM »
Oh I agree that what you describe is how politics should be - persuasion. I just don’t see it as a Corbyn-specific issue so the furore and microscopic emotion-driven analysis on Corbyn’s past works and actions and the accusations and media spin put on them all seems like a smear campaign rather than something credible that people can engage with and examine based on just the facts.

For example has anyone proved that the people buried in the cemetery in Tunisia had anything to do with the Munich massacres? Yet the mere suggestion is enough to try to “other” Corbyn. That’s the nature of Politics.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #185 on: August 28, 2018, 07:51:18 PM »
I hold the same view when posters start calling other posters names on here - no evidence of thoughtful, considered criticism. Just as easy to dismiss those posts as to dismiss Hodge's unedifying rant.

She may have made an 'unedifying rant' or she may have been 'angry and dignified', depending on who you listen to and your point of view. Me, I don't know, But here are her reasons, and given her background I thunk she can be forgiven for her perceived 'hypersensitivity'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-margaret-hodge

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Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #186 on: August 28, 2018, 07:52:59 PM »

For example has anyone proved that the people buried in the cemetery in Tunisia had anything to do with the Munich massacres? Yet the mere suggestion is enough to try to “other” Corbyn. That’s the nature of Politics.

It's also the nature of our right-wing press with its faux outrage. I try not to pay it too much attention.

wigginhall

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #187 on: August 28, 2018, 07:55:57 PM »
Apparently, with regard to the cemetery, Corbyn was standing near the graves of men whom Israel claims, planned Munich. Guilty, m'lud.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #188 on: August 28, 2018, 07:56:36 PM »
Apparently, with regard to the cemetery, Corbyn was standing near the graves of men whom Israel claims, planned Munich. Guilty, m'lud.

Well I know Corbyn thinks he did something or other. Meh.

Shaker

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #189 on: August 28, 2018, 08:01:47 PM »
For example has anyone proved that the people buried in the cemetery in Tunisia had anything to do with the Munich massacres? Yet the mere suggestion is enough to try to “other” Corbyn. That’s the nature of Politics.
(1) No.

(2) He was "othered" on the day that he won the leadership election for the first time - the day I joined a political party for the first time in my life - since he was a democratic socialist in a party historically democratically socialist but for the previous twenty-odd years dominated by Thatcherites.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #190 on: August 28, 2018, 08:05:17 PM »
Well,  yes.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #191 on: August 28, 2018, 09:01:24 PM »
She may have made an 'unedifying rant' or she may have been 'angry and dignified', depending on who you listen to and your point of view. Me, I don't know, But here are her reasons, and given her background I thunk she can be forgiven for her perceived 'hypersensitivity'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-margaret-hodge

My Jewish friend still have small wedding guest lists on one side of the family 'thanks to Hitler'.
Agreed. Absolutely she can be forgiven - for me that’s not the issue. I forgive my adult teenage daughter for any angry accusations aimed at me. I just won’t take her comments any more seriously than anyone else’s angry accusations - I want accusations backed up with evidence in order to take them seriously and I don’t consider as strong evidence her feelings of victimisation because Corbyn is critical of certain Israeli policies that seem designed by Israel to “other” Israel from those who are non-Zionists. I find all this talk of “othering” by supporters of a Jewish State somewhat ironic.
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wigginhall

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #192 on: August 28, 2018, 09:28:02 PM »
Yeah, but some people are out to get Corbyn, using any means. From the Daily Mail to the Guardian, it's guns blazing.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #193 on: August 28, 2018, 11:57:35 PM »
Seems like it.

I find Margaret Hodge's reasoning in her article (about why she called Corbyn an antisemite) wrong. People call other people Nazis - it's hyperbole - no one is seriously suggesting that there is any comparison in scale or intent to what the real Nazis did or intended to do to the Jewish people in Europe. Yes it's offensive to be called a Nazi even if you are not Jewish, but that's the point - it's supposed to be offensive as some people find the treatment of Palestinians under occupation abhorrent, and it is no less abhorrent just because the oppressor is Jewish. Yes being called a Nazi is even more offensive if you had family members killed by the real Nazis but I don't see the need to start outlawing offensive comparisons to political or historical figures on that basis.

Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes wiped out more people than Hitler during their military expansion but maybe the autocratic brutal behaviours associated with Nazis is more widely known so the term "Nazi" is more widely used.   

The Jewish community have had a lot of influence and input into the definitions of antisemitism and most of their examples that they want included have been accepted, so Margaret calling people antisemitic and trying to argue that all Jewish people's feelings have been completely ignored because a few examples of antisemitism have not been included sounds like activists trying to force people to accept their particular dogma rather than reasoned persuasion.

If some Muslim activists were arguing that it was Islamophobic to call a Muslim a "hebephile pig" for trying to marry a child, would we include that in the definition of Islamaphobia if they kicked up a big fuss, felt unwelcome and started leaving the country to live in another country where child brides were more socially acceptable?

I see no reason to support some blanket principle that the oppressed have a better understanding of reality because of the oppression they feel they have experienced as a result of their identity.  If supporting oppressive policies against others who are not of your race or religion is part of your identity, then I think your identity should be open to challenge and criticism.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #194 on: August 29, 2018, 10:16:02 AM »
A worldwide coalition of Jewish groups has issued a joint statement condemning attempts to stifle criticism of Israel with false accusations of antisemitism.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html
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Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #195 on: August 29, 2018, 02:29:26 PM »

Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes wiped out more people than Hitler during their military expansion but maybe the autocratic brutal behaviours associated with Nazis is more widely known so the term "Nazi" is more widely used.   


Slightly off topic, but I seriously doubt this is true. The highest estimate I heard for the Mongol expansion was twelve million. This is quite an impressive achievement considering the size of the World population at the time and the fact that the Mongols only had edged weapons, but just the invasion of Russia by Nazi Germany resulted in the deaths of perhaps 40 million Russians and 10 million Germans.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #196 on: August 30, 2018, 09:50:20 AM »
The comparison to the Rivers of Blood speech by Jonathan Sacks seems to me way over the top. Thoughthat Aaron Bastani thinks that the first thing that should be done as regards the letter from the rabbis is investigate their records is disturbing



https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-is-an-anti-semite-ex-chief-rabbi-jonathan-sacks-claims-11484443

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/corbyn-media-supporters-attack-former-chief-rabbi-for-corbyn-comments-1.468977





wigginhall

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #197 on: August 30, 2018, 10:00:59 AM »
Well, if prominent anti-Corbyn figures are right wing, and/or support the Tories, that seems relevant.   I don't know anything about Sacks, but his comparison with Powell is barmy. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #198 on: August 30, 2018, 10:15:09 AM »
Well, if prominent anti-Corbyn figures are right wing, and/or support the Tories, that seems relevant.   I don't know anything about Sacks, but his comparison with Powell is barmy.
I would think that the first thing you do is deal with any comments, not research the background of those making them in order to indulge in a bit of ad hom?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn
« Reply #199 on: August 30, 2018, 12:28:16 PM »
Slightly off topic, but I seriously doubt this is true. The highest estimate I heard for the Mongol expansion was twelve million. This is quite an impressive achievement considering the size of the World population at the time and the fact that the Mongols only had edged weapons, but just the invasion of Russia by Nazi Germany resulted in the deaths of perhaps 40 million Russians and 10 million Germans.
You sure? I read estimates between 40-70 million for the Mongol invasions. What are your sources for the lower estimate?

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll.html
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi