Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

Alex Massie on the silence on the rape and death threats to JK Rowling


https://archive.ph/2021.07.24-230942/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile Scottish civil servants being urged to put 'their pronouns' into email



https://archive.is/0Mbq4

[Nearly Sane]

And American medical lecturers are being told off for using the terms man and woman


https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/med-schools-are-now-denying-biological

[Nearly Sane]

The IOC praising Laurel Hubbard and saying everyone knows that 'trans women are women' . Misogynist drivel.



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

[SteveH]

The IOC praising Laurel Hubbard and saying everyone knows that 'trans women are women' . Misogynist drivel.



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

I asgree - trans women should not compete as women. Inclusivity is all very well, but they have an unfair physical advantage.
I remember a similar controversy in the 60s, when an intersex athlete - xxy chromosomes, I think - who had the primary and secondary sexual organs of a woman, but male musculature, was banned from competing as a woman. Tough on her, but any other decision would've been unfair on other female athletes.

[Nearly Sane]

I asgree - trans women should not compete as women. Inclusivity is all very well, but they have an unfair physical advantage.
I remember a similar controversy in the 60s, when an intersex athlete - xxy chromosomes, I think - who had the primary and secondary sexual organs of a woman, but male musculature, was banned from competing as a woman. Tough on her, but any other decision would've been unfair on other female athletes.

People with DSDs (Differences in Sex Development) are a completely unrelated question to trans.

[SteveH]

People with DSDs (Differences in Sex Development) are a completely unrelated question to trans.

Different, but hardly "completely unrelated". Google informs me that she was Ewa Klobukowska.

[Nearly Sane]

Different, but hardly "completely unrelated". Google informs me that she was Ewa Klobukowska.

In what way do you think they are related?

[SteveH]

Oh, ffs - I was agreeing with you, and you still manage to pick an argument!

[Nearly Sane]

Good from The Economist on Laurel Hubbard


https://archive.is/SS6rg

[Nearly Sane]

Oh, ffs - I was agreeing with you, and you still manage to pick an argument!

It's called a discussion. People can agree on one point but disagree on others. There's a strand of transactivism which seeks to use peoples with DSDs as pawns to muddy the waters on their position.

[SteveH]

Bollocks.

[jeremyp]

People with DSDs (Differences in Sex Development) are a completely unrelated question to trans.

It's not the same question but it is related. It's about how the body develops and whether it has the advantage of male development.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not the same question but it is related. It's about how the body develops and whether it has the advantage of male development.

Ok, I agree that some questions about what constitutes advantage come from the same place, and if that's what SteveH meant but didn't explain then this is what discussion looks like. However, If we take this approach as to what is a related set of questions, then it is more related to drugs cheating, since it's about modification.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's not the same question but it is related. It's about how the body develops and whether it has the advantage of male development.

It certainly is related.

You'll no doubt remember Caster Semenya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

As an intersex woman with naturally hight testosterone levels she was required to take medication to suppress testosterone levels in order to be allowed to compete, with a requirement to demonstrate testosterone levels below a particular threshold. This seems highly analogous to the situation for trans women athletes.

[Nearly Sane]

It certainly is related.

You'll no doubt remember Caster Semenya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

As an intersex woman with naturally hight testosterone levels she was required to take medication to suppress testosterone levels in order to be allowed to compete, with a requirement to demonstrate testosterone levels below a particular threshold. This seems highly analogous to the situation for trans women athletes.

Was Semenya modifying her body?  As already stated, the trans approach seems more analogous to drug cheats. Do you support Hubbard's participation?

[ProfessorDavey]

Was Semenya modifying her body?

In order to compete she was required to take medication that would reduce her natural testosterone levels which would therefore be body modifying. So I guess the answer is yes.

As already stated, the trans approach seems more analogous to drug cheats.

Actually in the cases of both Semenya and trans women athletes it seems to be the exact opposite of a drugs cheat. A drugs cheat takes a substance to enhance their performance above a level that would occur naturally. For Semenya and trans women athletes they are taking a substance to reduce their performance to a lower level than that which would occur naturally.

Do you support Hubbard's participation?

I think it is a minefield and I'm glad I'm not making the decisions. But I do think that the issue of trans women (note just trans women) being able to compete in athletics tournaments for women is distinct from the more general issues of trans rights, specifically because it is about athletic performance.

[Nearly Sane]

In order to compete she was required to take medication that would reduce her natural testosterone levels which would therefore be body modifying. So I guess the answer is yes.
Actually in the cases of both Semenya and trans women athletes it seems to be the exact opposite of a drugs cheat. A drugs cheat takes a substance to enhance their performance above a level that would occur naturally. For Semenya and trans women athletes they are taking a substance to reduce their performance to a lower level than that which would occur naturally.
I think it is a minefield and I'm glad I'm not making the decisions. But I do think that the issue of trans women (note just trans women) being able to compete in athletics tournaments for women is distinct from the more general issues of trans rights, specifically because it is about athletic performance.

I note your evasion on Hubbard. So simple question what is your definition of woman?

[ProfessorDavey]

I note your evasion on Hubbard.

I'm not being evasive - I just think it is an incredible difficult issue in athletics. Finding something complicated isn't being evasive.

So simple question what is your definition of woman?

Presumably an adult human female person.

[ProfessorDavey]

I note your evasion on Hubbard. So simple question what is your definition of woman?

I've answered your points. Can you please address mine regarding the completely opposite situation for performance enhancing drug cheats and people such as Semenya and trans women athletes who are actually taking performance reducing substances.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not being evasive - I just think it is an incredible difficult issue in athletics. Finding something complicated isn't being evasive.
Presumably an adult human female person.

So not Hubbard, so he shouldn't be in the women's competition, so not 'incredibly difficult'.


Btw what does 'person' add in your definition?

[Nearly Sane]

I've answered your points. Can you please address mine regarding the completely opposite situation for performance enhancing drug cheats and people such as Semenya and trans women athletes who are actually taking performance reducing substances.

Semenya has not altered her body by drugs,  And has chosen not to. Hubbard and drug cheats have. Do you accept that testorone is not the only issue?

[ProfessorDavey]

So not Hubbard, so he shouldn't be in the women's competition, so not 'incredibly difficult'.

Depends on the approach to defining female doesn't it. In the sense of sex rather than gender male/female is determined anatomically, chromosomally to hormonally (or in combination). Athletics have decided that the most appropriate way to determine female for their purposes is hormonally, and I guess this makes sense as this is the key element that defines differences in performance between men and women. Hence they allow intersex and transgender people to compete as women provided they have testosterone levels within the normal range of women.

[Nearly Sane]

Depends on the approach to defining female doesn't it. In the sense of sex rather than gender male/female is determined anatomically, chromosomally to hormonally (or in combination). Athletics have decided that the most appropriate way to determine female for their purposes is hormonally, and I guess this makes sense as this is the key element that defines differences in performance between men and women. Hence they allow intersex and transgender people to compete as women provided they have testosterone levels within the normal range of women.

Unscientific evasive drivel.

[jeremyp]

Was Semenya modifying her body?  As already stated, the trans approach seems more analogous to drug cheats. Do you support Hubbard's participation?

Caster Semenya is male. She has testes and no ovaries. The difference between her and trans women is that she didn't know she is male until she was tested. However, the same developmental advantages accrue for her as for trans women.

This is a hard case because her situation s not of her own making. Nevertheless, whatever the solution you propose to "who should be allowed to compete in women's sports" there are going to be hard cases like this.