Trans rights: a perspective

[jeremyp]

Depends on the approach to defining female doesn't it. In the sense of sex rather than gender male/female is determined anatomically, chromosomally to hormonally (or in combination). Athletics have decided that the most appropriate way to determine female for their purposes is hormonally, and I guess this makes sense as this is the key element that defines differences in performance between men and women. Hence they allow intersex and transgender people to compete as women provided they have testosterone levels within the normal range of women.

The trouble is that studies have shown that the advantages that males who take hormones persist for at least three years after they start taking the hormones and that, if you went through puberty as a male, some advantages are never negated.

By the way: females are the sex that produce the large gametes. In humans that basically means that females are the ones who have ovaries rather than testes - or would have, but for medical conditions or medical intervention.

[Nearly Sane]

Caster Semenya is male. She has testes and no ovaries. The difference between her and trans women is that she didn't know she is male until she was tested. However, the same developmental advantages accrue for her as for trans women.

This is a hard case because her situation s not of her own making. Nevertheless, whatever the solution you propose to "who should be allowed to compete in women's sports" there are going to be hard cases like this.

What's hard about trans identifying men saying they are women? What's the connection with Semenya?

[ProfessorDavey]

... trans identifying men ...

What on earth is a trans identifying man NS? I know what a trans man is and I know what a trans woman is, but a trans identifying man

[Nearly Sane]

What on earth is a trans identifying man NS? I know what a trans man is and I know what a trans woman is, but a trans identifying man

A man who identifies as a woman. They are men, and the use of the term 'trans woman' has been used to smuggle in the meaningless mantra that 'trans women are women'. In no sense are they women.

[ProfessorDavey]

A man who identifies as a woman. They are men, and the use of the term 'trans woman' has been used to smuggle in the meaningless mantra that 'trans women are women'. In no sense are they women.

I'm sorry NS but you cannot create your own terminology because you don't like the accepted terminology. A person born a man who identifies as a woman is a trans-gender person, specifically a trans-woman, not a trans identifying man.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm sorry NS but you cannot create your own terminology because you don't like the accepted terminology. A person born a man who identifies as a woman is a trans-gender person, specifically a trans-woman, not a trans identifying man.

I am not the only person who uses it. Your lack of knowledge of a term is no argument against it, and languages changes. Once there was no such term as' 'transwoman'. I refuse to use a term which is inaccurate and has been used as a Trojan horse to attack women's swx based rights and spaces.

[Aruntraveller]

I'm sorry NS but you cannot create your own terminology because you don't like the accepted terminology

Why not? It's exactly what the aggressive trans lobby have done. Sauce. Goose. Gander.

They are redefining the English language to suit their agenda.

So pregnant women are now "pregnant people", "chestfeeding" instead of breastfeeding. The nonsense around personal pronouns. It is never ending.

How long before the above becomes accepted terminology because we are too frightened to say no to a bunch of self obsessed narcissists?

[Nearly Sane]

Why not? It's exactly what the aggressive trans lobby have done. Sauce. Goose. Gander.

They are redefining the English language to suit their agenda.

So pregnant women are now "pregnant people", "chestfeeding" instead of breastfeeding. The nonsense around personal pronouns. It is never ending.

How long before the above becomes accepted terminology because we are too frightened to say no to a bunch of self obsessed narcissists?

And the homophobic attempts to redefine homosexual, gay, and lesbian

[jeremyp]

What's hard about trans identifying men saying they are women? What's the connection with Semenya?

Trans women are male

Caster Semenya is male.

As males, they have physical advantages over their female competitors.

Are you really saying you can't see the connection, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

[Nearly Sane]

Trans women are male

Caster Semenya is male.

As males, they have physical advantages over their female competitors.

Are you really saying you can't see the connection, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

No, I'm saying that trans identifying men are not people with DSDs. The decision about what sex someone with a DSD is not what applies to trans identifying men.

[ProfessorDavey]

Are you really saying you can't see the connection, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

And in both cases they need to take androgen-blocking substances to reduce testosterone levels to ensure those levels are below the threshold required by the athletics authorities to allow them to compete. Realistically those androgen-blocking substances are performance reducing substances as they will diminish performance compared to the situation that would have occurred had they not been taking them. That seems to me to be completely the reverse of someone taking performance enhancing substances.

Whether it is fair to allow these individuals to compete is another matter, given that I completely accept Jeremy P's point that high testosterone levels earlier in life can have long lasting effects on performance, even when levels are reduced subsequently. But this affects not just intersex and trans women but also woman with hyperandrogenism.

As Jeremy pointed out and I agree, these are the hard cases that the athletics federations need to wrestle with - it is complicated and any decision will be open to criticism from those who feel it unfair.

[Nearly Sane]

And in both cases they need to take androgen-blocking substances to reduce testosterone levels to ensure those levels are below the threshold required by the athletics authorities to allow them to compete. Realistically those androgen-blocking substances are performance reducing substances as they will diminish performance compared to the situation that would have occurred had they not been taking them. That seems to me to be completely the reverse of someone taking performance enhancing substances.

Whether it is fair to allow these individuals to compete is another matter, given that I completely accept Jeremy P's point that high testosterone levels earlier in life can have long lasting effects on performance, even when levels are reduced subsequently. But this affects not just intersex and trans women but also woman with hyperandrogenism.

As Jeremy pointed out and I agree, these are the hard cases that the athletics federations need to wrestle with - it is complicated and any decision will be open to criticism from those who feel it unfair.

Does jeremyp agree that trans identifying men are  'hard cases'?

[ProfessorDavey]

Does jeremyp agree that trans identifying men are  'hard cases'?

Firstly you will have to ask Jeremy that one.

Secondly I don't recognise, nor accept the term trans identifying men so I cannot comment. However I do think that considering whether or not, and under what circumstances trans-women may compete in athletics is a very challenging issue.

[Nearly Sane]

Firstly you will have to ask Jeremy that one.

Secondly I don't recognise, nor accept the term trans identifying men so I cannot comment. However I do think that considering whether or not, and under what circumstances trans-women may compete in athletics is a very challenging issue.

I am happy for jeremyp to reply, and indeed would like him to do so. I am just not sure that he agrees with you that trans identifying men are  'hard cases'.


Why?  What's difficult about not having men in women's sport? I've already covered the term trans identifying men. You know what I mean.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am happy for jeremyp to reply, and indeed would like him to do so. I am just not sure that he agrees with you that trans identifying men are  'hard cases'.

Fine - he may well disagree with me, that's fine.

Why?  What's difficult about not having men in women's sport? I've already covered the term trans identifying men. You know what I mean.

Yes - they are called trans women.

And yes there is a challenge - first on the basic principle that people should not be discriminated against on the basis of their trans status. But there is also a spanner in the works of your argument. If tranwomen are men (as you argue) and therefore should not be allowed to compete in women's athletics, then transmen, by your argument, are women and therefore should be allowed to compete in women's sports. You cannot have it both ways, but I think allowing transmen to compete in women's competitions seems inherently unfair.

[Nearly Sane]

Fine - he may well disagree with me, that's fine.
Yes - they are called trans women.

And yes there is a challenge - first on the basic principle that people should not be discriminated against on the basis of their trans status. But there is also a spanner in the works of your argument. If tranwomen are men (as you argue) and therefore should not be allowed to compete in women's athletics, then transmen, by your argument, are women and therefore should be allowed to compete in women's sports. You cannot have it both ways, but I think allowing transmen to compete in women's competitions seems inherently unfair.

Indeed I think trans identifying women should compete in women's sports. But they cannot be taking medication that would be regarded as doping.

Sex is a protected characteristic, and there is exemption in the 2010 Act even for those with a gender recognition certificate that they cab be excluded from women's spaces. Gender is regressive patriarchal woo.

[ProfessorDavey]

Indeed I think trans identifying women should compete in women's sports. But they cannot be taking medication that would be regarded as doping.

I don't think it would necessarily be regarded as doping though would it. There are many examples where individuals are allowed to take prescription medication for a medical condition that were they not to have that medical condition would be considered doping - asthma medication being a good example. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition and therefore if someone was taking a substance for that reason it would not necessarily be considered to be doping, albeit it may be unfair. As I say it is complicated.

Sex is a protected characteristic, and there is exemption in the 2010 Act even for those with a gender recognition certificate that they cab be excluded from women's spaces.

True, but the whole notion of women's only sports is an exception from the basic equalities legislation for which the default is always jobs, services etc etc should be open to all regardless of sex. So the very notion that men are not permitted to compete in certain sports is an opt out from the equalities provisions.

Gender is regressive patriarchal woo.

Gender is not regressive patriarchal woo - it is a very well recognised concept that is distinct from, but related to, biological sex. And when we are discussing trans-gender matters, the clue is in the name. It is about gender.

[Nearly Sane]

There is, of course, a trans identifying woman who is playing in the women's football team for Canada

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinn_(soccer)

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think it would necessarily be regarded as doping though would it. There are many examples where individuals are allowed to take prescription medication for a medical condition that were they not to have that medical condition would be considered doping - asthma medication being a good example. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition and therefore if someone was taking a substance for that reason it would not necessarily be considered to be doping, albeit it may be unfair. As I say it is complicated.
True, but the whole notion of women's only sports is an exception from the basic equalities legislation for which the default is always jobs, services etc etc should be open to all regardless of sex. So the very notion that men are not permitted to compete in certain sports is an opt out from the equalities provisions.
Gender is not regressive patriarchal woo - it is a very well recognised concept that is distinct from, but related to, biological sex. And when we are discussing trans-gender matters, the clue is in the name. It is about gender.

So what is the definition of the gender 'woman' as opposed to sex? What does that have to do with to do with a sex based split?

[ProfessorDavey]

There is, of course, a trans identifying woman who is playing in the women's football team for Canada

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinn_(soccer)

Quinn isn't a transman as they identify as non binary, not identifying as either male or female as a gender identity. So I'm not sure why they are relevant in the discussion of transmen being women and therefore able to compete in women's sport as they aren't a transman.

But as I've said before it is complicated.

[SusanDoris]

I am not the only person who uses it. Your lack of knowledge of a term is no argument against it, and languages changes. Once there was no such term as' 'transwoman'. I refuse to use a term which is inaccurate and has been used as a Trojan horse to attack women's swx based rights and spaces.

This subject never really comes up in any of my daily conversations, but if it does I shall use your term.

[Harrowby Hall]

So what is the definition of the gender 'woman' as opposed to sex? What does that have to do with to do with a sex based split?

Sex is a binary biological condition and is either male or female.  The word sex, apparently, comes from the same root as, for example, seccateurs, and possibly refers to an ancient legend that when the gods made the first human they took a single being and split it into two halves.

Gender is a continuum with "masculine" and "feminine" as its extreme points. To use gender as alternative to sex is linguistic ignorance.

[Nearly Sane]

Sex is a binary biological condition and is either male or female.  The word sex, apparently, comes from the same root as, for example, seccateurs, and possibly refers to an ancient legend that when the gods made the first human they took a single being and split it into two halves.

Gender is a continuum with "masculine" and "feminine" as its extreme points. To use gender as alternative to sex is linguistic ignorance.

Take it up with Prof D who thinks men particpating in women's sport is a  'hard case' because 'gender'.

[Nearly Sane]

Janice Turner on the cheat that is Hubbard



https://archive.is/fiwQ1

[ProfessorDavey]

Janice Turner on the cheat that is Hubbard

I'm sorry NS - that comment cannot go unchallenged as it is potentially libellous. The Mods might want to take a view too.

To be a cheat in sports you need to be breaking one or more of the rules that govern that sport with the view of gaining an advantage. As far as I am aware Hubbard has broken no rule, she has complied with all the rules set out by the IOC governing bodies for participation in the events she is competing in. If you know differently NS then please tell us which of the rules she has broken. And if she has complied with all the rules how can she be a cheat.

What you mean is that you don't agree with the rules that govern participation and want them changed. That is a legitimate opinion, although others will disagree. However that is a different matter to her being a cheat as that would imply that she is breaking the rules that currently govern the sport. To imply that she is a cheat when she isn't breaking any rules seems to me to be libellous, specifically a comment that is derogatory and not true.

So if you want to persist in suggesting she is a cheat please can you indicate which rule or rules that govern participation in these events that she has broken. As mentioned previously the Mods might want to take a view too.