Trans rights: a perspective

[ProfessorDavey]

If you want to traumatise women by having biological men as prisoners with them then your misogyny is showing.

Oh there you go, branding anyone who does not agree with your frankly extreme views (just as extreme as some of the hard core trans activists) as misogynist.

I think that there needs to be an assessment on a case by case basis on the risk posed by the individual person to other inmates and an assessment of the risk posed to that person by other inmates.

Of course that is likely to suggest that a rapist with a penis who identifies as a woman will pose a risk to women inmates and should not be in a women's prison.

But similarly a long time post op trans woman with a vagina and no penis and no history of violence towards anyone does not pose a risk to women inmates. However it would be pretty clear that being held in a men's prison with men who have a history of raping women would pose a huge risk to that trans woman - indeed I image she would be completely traumatised by being held in a men's prison. Trans-women can be traumatised too NS, but you don't really seem to care about that do you?

So simply question to you NS - should a 45 year-old transwoman who had full gender reassignment surgery at the age of 25 who is in prison for fraud and has no history of any violence (either to men or women) be held in a men's prison or a women's prison.

[Nearly Sane]

Oh there you go, branding anyone who does not agree with your frankly extreme views (just as extreme as some of the hard core trans activists) as misogynist.

I think that there needs to be an assessment on a case by case basis on the risk posed by the individual person to other inmates and an assessment of the risk posed to that person by other inmates.

Of course that is likely to suggest that a rapist with a penis who identifies as a woman will pose a risk to women inmates and should not be in a women's prison.

But similarly a long time post op trans woman with a vagina and no penis and no history of violence towards anyone does not pose a risk to women inmates. However it would be pretty clear that being held in a men's prison with men who have a history of raping women would pose a huge risk to that trans woman - indeed I image she would be completely traumatised by being held in a men's prison. Trans-women can be traumatised too NS, but you don't really seem to care about that do you?

So simply question to you NS - should a 45 year-old transwoman who had full gender reassignment surgery at the age of 25 who is in prison for fraud and has no history of any violence (either to men or women) be held in a men's prison or a women's prison.

As opposed to your lazy ad hom? I can't help thinking you are a misogynist since all of the above ignore what the women in the prison feel because you want to care about the bloke with the surgery above them. You are exactly the type of person on the left who contributed to the sexual assault of women by Karen White.

[ProfessorDavey]

You are exactly the type of person on the left who contributed to the sexual assault of women by Karen White.

Do you even bother to read my posts NS, before you knee-jerk. Err which bit of this:

'Of course that is likely to suggest that a rapist with a penis who identifies as a woman will pose a risk to women inmates and should not be in a women's prison.'

is unclear to you NS?

[ProfessorDavey]

As opposed to your lazy ad hom? I can't help thinking you are a misogynist since all of the above ignore what the women in the prison feel because you want to care about the bloke with the surgery above them. You are exactly the type of person on the left who contributed to the sexual assault of women by Karen White.

No can you kindly answer my question please. Should the hypothetical person I mentioned be sent to a men's prison (where she will be at serious risk of harm from other inmates) or a women's prison (where she poses no risk to the inmates). To be clear these are her attributes - a 45 year-old transwoman who had full gender reassignment surgery at the age of 25 who is in prison for fraud and has no history of any violence (either to men or women).

[Nearly Sane]

Do you even bother to read my posts NS, before you knee-jerk. Err which bit of this:

'Of course that is likely to suggest that a rapist with a penis who identifies as a woman will pose a risk to women inmates and should not be in a women's prison.'

is unclear to you NS?

And yet they were placed there due to the 'organisational sense' you championed. Your vapid thinking is complicit in their sexual assault.

[Nearly Sane]

No can you kindly answer my question please. Should the hypothetical person I mentioned be sent to a men's prison (where she will be at serious risk of harm from other inmates) or a women's prison (where she poses no risk to the inmates). To be clear these are her attributes - a 45 year-old transwoman who had full gender reassignment surgery at the age of 25 who is in prison for fraud and has no history of any violence (either to men or women).

I'll go with Rhona Hotchkiss's approach here that it needs a separate prison and not a women's one as some safeguard for men with mental health problems. So question right back at you, why should the women in a women's prison be the protection for a man?

[ProfessorDavey]

... for men with mental health problems ...

FFS NS - what a disgraceful comment. That goes well beyond your usual ranting extremism on this matter into deeply unpleasant territory.

[Nearly Sane]

FFS NS - what a disgraceful comment. That goes well beyond your usual ranting extremism on this matter into deeply unpleasant territory.

Why? There are people who want to have limbs removed because it is how they see themselves. Is that not a mental health problem. What is the difference? And why do you want women in prison to indulge it?

[Nearly Sane]

I think anyone who has major surgery and takes huge hormone therapy to try and deal with their being born in the sex that they were is a sad case of mental illness. I want them to have all the support they could need. None of that support is in agreeing that such an idea that they they are born in the wrong body is true, and none of that idea includes jeopardising or traumatising women to deal with an anti scientific  delusion.

And before anyone mentions 'intersex', people with differences on sexual development, first realise that that is irrelevant to the idea of 'gender' as a soul 

[SteveH]

May I suggest you continue the trans discussion on the trans thread?

[Christine]

Oh there you go, branding anyone who does not agree with your frankly extreme views (just as extreme as some of the hard core trans activists) as misogynist.

I think that there needs to be an assessment on a case by case basis on the risk posed by the individual person to other inmates and an assessment of the risk posed to that person by other inmates.

Of course that is likely to suggest that a rapist with a penis who identifies as a woman will pose a risk to women inmates and should not be in a women's prison.

But similarly a long time post op trans woman with a vagina and no penis and no history of violence towards anyone does not pose a risk to women inmates. However it would be pretty clear that being held in a men's prison with men who have a history of raping women would pose a huge risk to that trans woman - indeed I image she would be completely traumatised by being held in a men's prison. Trans-women can be traumatised too NS, but you don't really seem to care about that do you?

So simply question to you NS - should a 45 year-old transwoman who had full gender reassignment surgery at the age of 25 who is in prison for fraud and has no history of any violence (either to men or women) be held in a men's prison or a women's prison.

I'll answer this. He should be in a men's prison. Humans can't change sex. A castrated man is not a woman. Perhaps all the relatively small, weak and pretty men who would be at risk in a men's prison should be incarcerated with women too?

Gender identity ideology is every bit as irrational as Young Earth Creationism. However strongly a man believes he is a woman, he isn't. Feeliings don't change facts. I've never voted Tory in my life, but this time I will vote for any candidate regardless of rosette colour who doesn't lie to my face about blatantly obvious reality. If there isn't one I'll spoil my ballot. Anyone parroting the nonsense that some men are women is either inexcusably ignorant, dishonest, or has bad intent, in my opinion. After the WPATH files and Cass, there's no excuse.

The GRA should be repealed. There's no need for it now that we have equal marriage.

[Nearly Sane]

I'll answer this. He should be in a men's prison. Humans can't change sex. A castrated man is not a woman. Perhaps all the relatively small, weak and pretty men who would be at risk in a men's prison should be incarcerated with women too?

Gender identity ideology is every bit as irrational as Young Earth Creationism. However strongly a man believes he is a woman, he isn't. Feeliings don't change facts. I've never voted Tory in my life, but this time I will vote for any candidate regardless of rosette colour who doesn't lie to my face about blatantly obvious reality. If there isn't one I'll spoil my ballot. Anyone parroting the nonsense that some men are women is either inexcusably ignorant, dishonest, or has bad intent, in my opinion. After the WPATH files and Cass, there's no excuse.

The GRA should be repealed. There's no need for it now that we have equal marriage.

Prof D just thinks you're being distracted by the Tories. He's happy to put women at risk for an anti scientific ideology, and thinks that anyone concerned about it is either right wing or stupid.

BTW agree,, though I'll never vote Tory, and good to see you posting.

[jeremyp]

And while we're on the subject of organisations making rational decisions. Tell that to the women sexually assaulted by Karen White

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

I think you need to reflect on what "case by case" means.

[Nearly Sane]

And while I welcome the Tories move to clarify the legislation, I also agree that this is a problem that they could have dealt with, and not only didn't but had voices stopping it, as covered in this article from Kathleen Stock.


https://archive.vn/BGxgR

[Nearly Sane]

I think you need to reflect on what "case by case" means.

Prof D had been justifying the case by case approach on the idea that the organisation would make rational decisions. This showed the problems with that 

I think you need to reflect that what you are defending led to women being sexually assaulted.

[Gordon]

I'll answer this. He should be in a men's prison. Humans can't change sex. A castrated man is not a woman. Perhaps all the relatively small, weak and pretty men who would be at risk in a men's prison should be incarcerated with women too?

Gender identity ideology is every bit as irrational as Young Earth Creationism. However strongly a man believes he is a woman, he isn't. Feeliings don't change facts. I've never voted Tory in my life, but this time I will vote for any candidate regardless of rosette colour who doesn't lie to my face about blatantly obvious reality. If there isn't one I'll spoil my ballot. Anyone parroting the nonsense that some men are women is either inexcusably ignorant, dishonest, or has bad intent, in my opinion. After the WPATH files and Cass, there's no excuse.

The GRA should be repealed. There's no need for it now that we have equal marriage.

Good to see you posting again Christine - and I agree with you.

[Christine]

I think you need to reflect on what "case by case" means.

There is no case where a man is a woman.

Once you've accepted the dogma that men can be women, you have no basis on which to exclude any man who says he is a woman from women's single-sex facilities.

"You can come in, but only if you cut off your testicles and invert your penis" isn't a solution for any problem.

That the so-called "left" have bought into this self-serving, individualistic, narcissistic, reality denying nonsense, that benefits mainly pharmaceutical corporations and unethical surgeons, is disappointing. You can't identify into oppression. Material reality matters.

"Gender affirming care" should be called what it is: stereotype enforcing harm.

[Aruntraveller]

Anyone parroting the nonsense that some men are women is either inexcusably ignorant, dishonest, or has bad intent, in my opinion.

Not necessarily. Some have been led by opinion formers to "be kind", they aren't necessarily any of the abovementioned things.

To call them that only makes it all the more difficult to explain and persuade them of the error of their ways.

[Christine]

Hello everybody 

Sorry to come back all guns blazing like that. But this issue is very important to me, for several good reasons, and being a woman isn't even top of the list.

[Aruntraveller]

Hello everybody 

Sorry to come back all guns blazing like that. But this issue is very important to me, for several good reasons, and being a woman isn't even top of the list.

Welcome back. It is very good to see you posting again.

[Nearly Sane]

Hello everybody 

Sorry to come back all guns blazing like that. But this issue is very important to me, for several good reasons, and being a woman isn't even top of the list.

As already covered, I agree with you. But then, we, and it would appear some others here, just have extreme views according to Prof D.

[Christine]

Not necessarily. Some have been led by opinion formers to "be kind", they aren't necessarily any of the abovementioned things.

To call them that only makes it all the more difficult to explain and persuade them of the error of their ways.

They are at least ill-informed.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but the evidence is now available for all to see, despite the BBC etc making best efforts to ignore it. It's not "kind" to affirm a delusion or to tell children they can change sex. The results are horrific. Truth matters.

[Nearly Sane]

They are at least ill-informed.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but the evidence is now available for all to see, despite the BBC etc making best efforts to ignore it. It's not "kind" to affirm a delusion or to tell children they can change sex. The results are horrific. Truth matters.

I think this makes me much harsher on those such as Starmer who peddled the idea that some men can be women, and that it was somehow bad to talk about it, while Rosie Duffield was receiving death threats.

[Aruntraveller]

They are at least ill-informed.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but the evidence is now available for all to see, despite the BBC etc making best efforts to ignore it. It's not "kind" to affirm a delusion or to tell children they can change sex. The results are horrific. Truth matters.

Ill-informed covers it. I agree with you on the rest of it, but if we are to change people's minds we have to engage in ways that aren't so confrontational that they are just forced into defending their position.

A lot of people don't think too deeply, if at all, about the issue, which I fear is the real problem and they will tend to follow the aforementioned "be kind" brigade, in other words the bilge that is pumped out as "guidance/lifestyle" by the likes of the BBC. They are dealing with cost of living, job insecurity, crap schools, malfunctioning NHS, etc. some of them don't have the bandwidth to be bothered with it.

[Christine]

As already covered, I agree with you. But then, we, and it would appear some others here, just have extreme views according to Prof D.

I'm well past being concerned about being labelled right-wing. I've been harassed and discriminated against at work (confirmed by an official investigation conducted by my civil service ex-employer), pursued through the streets of Manchester by a baying mob while the police did nothing, and surrounded by masked thugs with loud hailers calling me a nazi - again, while the police did nothing. My ex-colleagues were given a training course at work that informed them that me referring to myself as an adult female human was the equivalent to using a racial slur against someone else. Told that stating that sex is a material reality, and in some circumstances important, makes me a bigot.

I'm not interested in labels any more. I don't believe what I'm told by previously trusted sources.

I'd recommend everyone reads The Denton's Document, about how to promote and impose an unpopular, indefensible political agenda. Authoritarians are on the left as well as the right.