Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

You appear just to have quoted me in reply 2422, and not added anything???

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think that presents a simplistic view of Dawkis position, and also one that looks at a purely philosophical issue ignoring practicalities. I don't think Dawkins thinks science is 'normative' as asserted here, rather that there in making normative decisions scientific facts need to be acknowledged, and that any normative decisions based on a denial of those facts are inherently flawed.

In terms of the practicality, I have little time for looking at notional possibilities when women I know cannot attend rape counselling because the rape crisis centres will not support single sex spaces.

But, I haven't heard Dawkins 'opponents' in the matter claim that on the strength of feeling, they no longer have XY chromosomes or have strangely developed cellular Barr bodies.
I think the point being made here is that Dawkin's stretches the science to far and begins to use it to cover ground better covered by religion or philosophy....which imv is consistent with Dawkins generalised intellectual imperialism.

So the question, why should biology be normative here when it isn't elsewhere is a valid question.

[Nearly Sane]

But, I haven't heard Dawkins 'opponents' in the matter claim that on the strength of feeling, they no longer have XY chromosomes or have strangely developed cellular Barr bodies.
I think the point being made here is that Dawkin's stretches the science to far and begins to use it to cover ground better covered by religion or philosophy....which imv is consistent with Dawkins generalised intellectual imperialism.

So the question, why should biology be normative here when it isn't elsewhere is a valid question.

You seem to have completely ignored what I said as regards normative.

[Nearly Sane]

Hugely significant case in terms of rolling back gender ideology in the civil service.

https://archive.vn/XnnEv

[Nearly Sane]

Hugely significant case in terms of rolling back gender ideology in the civil service.

https://archive.vn/XnnEv

Eleanor Frances's summary of her treatment and case


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1878164412139184162.html#google_vignette

[Nearly Sane]

And details on case which will now not be held in private where again the idea of single sex spaces has been challenged.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/politics/government/backers-of-trans-row-nurse-complain-lip-service-is-being-paid-to-keeping-women-only-spaces/ar-BB1riUKd

[Nearly Sane]

Joan Smith on the attempts to censoring the Oxford Literary Festival


https://unherd.com/newsroom/oxford-literary-festival-faces-growing-trans-backlash/

[jeremyp]

But, I haven't heard Dawkins 'opponents' in the matter claim that on the strength of feeling, they no longer have XY chromosomes or have strangely developed cellular Barr bodies.
I think the point being made here is that Dawkin's stretches the science to far and begins to use it to cover ground better covered by religion or philosophy....which imv is consistent with Dawkins generalised intellectual imperialism.

So the question, why should biology be normative here when it isn't elsewhere is a valid question.

No ground is better covered by religion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No ground is better covered by religion.

Although Trueman's article proposes that a Theist who talks about the genders being complimentary and therefore purposeful is on firmer ground than someone proposing science delineates what is normal vis a vis gender and sex.

[jeremyp]

Although Trueman's article proposes that a Theist who talks about the genders being complimentary and therefore purposeful is on firmer ground than someone proposing science delineates what is normal vis a vis gender and sex.

A theist proposing anything based on their religion is not on any kind of ground at all.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A theist proposing anything based on their religion is not on any kind of ground at all.

No, that assumes that religion does not have a linguistic and philosophical framework or argument which of course, is crap.

Trueman also points out that Dawkins, apart from any religious consideration, cannot derive his authority to speak on gender and sex from science in the way he thinks he has.

So assuming God the person arguing of a traditional view of gender and sex is arguing consistently

But a person arguing those same traditional views from science is not being consistent.

The difficulty for the Freedom from religion movement is that it made Coyne and Dawkins their authoritative base and are the victims of their own scientism.

[Nearly Sane]

The lesbophobia of the gender ideology


https://thecritic.co.uk/cotton-ceiling-2-0/

[Nearly Sane]

Susan Dalgety on Trump's Executive Order on sex.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-left-must-realise-that-donald-trumps-gender-views-strike-a-chord-with-voters-4958884

[Nearly Sane]

Susan Dalgety on Trump's Executive Order on sex.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-left-must-realise-that-donald-trumps-gender-views-strike-a-chord-with-voters-4958884

And alternative view. Not one I have much time for


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/25/trump-executive-order-sex

[Nearly Sane]

And alternative view. Not one I have much time for


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/25/trump-executive-order-sex

Carole Hooven who was approached to provide info to the writer on the piece

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1883607864025194744

[Steve H]

From the Grauniad:

[Nearly Sane]

Article that covers a lot of my thoughts on gender ideology


https://archive.is/u419l

[jeremyp]

No, that assumes that religion does not have a linguistic and philosophical framework or argument which of course, is crap.

No. It assumes religion is not based on fact, which it isn't.

[Nearly Sane]

Joan McAlpine on the current Peggie v Fife Health Board case where a woman's right to private spaces has once more been called into doubt by people sticking up for a man who says he is a woman.

[Nearly Sane]

Superb from JK Rowling


https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1887472120541679690?s=48&t=ntLKx9gC7KodUQ3uihBo1A

[Nearly Sane]

And Jo Bartosch on the Peggie case.

https://thecritic.co.uk/describing-reality-is-not-harassment/

[Nearly Sane]

And a good article on the Peggie case from Sonia Sodha


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/09/no-woman-should-be-forced-to-change-her-clothes-in-front-of-a-trans-colleague

[Nearly Sane]

The problem with Pete - good article  on the issues raised by the Peggie case


https://forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/

[Sassy]

How do we get it right?
Shouldn't one law cover all?  Do we give special right for all? How does the 'all/old boys club', really get covered/present itself here. Is there a place in this for transgendered women/men??

A round peg suddenly becomes square.  How so we make it fit in?

They do not need to be include with the natural way/order they need to be added as a natural part of the order of all things as they are.

Do we make everything about rights and do we get a say? 
Transgender people have an hard enough time during transition. Before moving, I gave a lift to a girl who struggling with shopping bags to bread and butter club. Moved to get away from people
making her life a misery. Grateful for the lift and a friendly person. At the end of the day we need to treat everyone the same and be kind to them and help.
My two penneth, Treat everyone with respect and kindness.

[Nearly Sane]

How do we get it right?
Shouldn't one law cover all?  Do we give special right for all? How does the 'all/old boys club', really get covered/present itself here. Is there a place in this for transgendered women/men??

A round peg suddenly becomes square.  How so we make it fit in?

They do not need to be include with the natural way/order they need to be added as a natural part of the order of all things as they are.

Do we make everything about rights and do we get a say? 
Transgender people have an hard enough time during transition. Before moving, I gave a lift to a girl who struggling with shopping bags to bread and butter club. Moved to get away from people
making her life a misery. Grateful for the lift and a friendly person. At the end of the day we need to treat everyone the same and be kind to them and help.
My two penneth, Treat everyone with respect and kindness.

So you do think there should be single sex spaces for women or not?