Trans rights: a perspective

[wigginhall]

Never mind subjective reporting by individuals with a conflict of interest.

 What is the objective evidence that the hormonal treatments prescribed to trans women reduce their performance to the corresponding level for women that they had as a man?

There isn't any.  I assume the Olympic and IAAF rules are based on studies of performance, but where that is published, or if,  don't know.

[Nearly Sane]

What has that got to do with trans athletes cheating?  Are you saying that they are breaking Olympic and IAAF rules?

Actually, this point has lapsed, since Martina has apologizd for using the word 'cheat'.

But still opposes transgender athletes participating.

[jeremyp]

There isn't any.

That's what I thought might be the case. So instead of pandering to trans women's sense of entitlement, how about telling them no until such time as they present solid scientific evidence that their treatments really do completely compensate for the advantage their male physiology gives them?

[wigginhall]

Entitlement?  Wow, you live in a different world from me.

[Nearly Sane]

Entitlement?  Wow, you live in a different world from me.

I'll agree with wigginhall here - entitlement for transgender or transexual is an odd term.

[Nearly Sane]

Mmm

https://medium.com/@Antonia_Lee/the-iocs-transgender-guidelines-are-unscientific-and-pose-a-serious-risk-to-the-health-of-both-5f5f808748e2

[jeremyp]

Entitlement?  Wow, you live in a different world from me.

How about, instead of parading your faux outrage at people with whom you disagree, engaging with the arguments.

Women’s sports exist solely because it is recognized that women are at such a physiological disadvantage to men, that they could not compete at the top levels. If somebody who is physiologically male thinks they have a right to participate in women’s sport despite their physiology disqualifying them, how is that not a sense of entitlement?

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed

https://medium.com/@MForstater/international-development-lets-talk-about-sex-eb9de927c787

[Enki]

Indeed

https://medium.com/@MForstater/international-development-lets-talk-about-sex-eb9de927c787

I read this with interest. I found the phrase towards the end of the piece to be of particular relevance to the controversy regarding Sharron Davies(former Olympic  swimmer) when it said:

5. People who express concern about impacts on women’s rights and women’s spaces should not be dismissed as hateful or bigots.

I listened to what Sharron Davies had to say about the potential unfairness of male to female transgender athletes competing in certain sports in the women's sections. What she had to say seemed to me to be eminently sensible. To label her transphobic or hateful towards transgender people was surely uncalled for, cruel and grossly inaccurate.

[wigginhall]

I think Ms Davies annoyed people by talking about the "wish to be trans", when most GNC people I've met don't think it is voluntary.   As to banning trans women, it seems to depend on the Olympics new rules, which are currently locked in court.  I don't think a trans woman would be allowed to win gold medals and Grand Slams, they would change the rules immediately.

[Nearly Sane]

I think Ms Davies annoyed people by talking about the "wish to be trans", when most GNC people I've met don't think it is voluntary.   As to banning trans women, it seems to depend on the Olympics new rules, which are currently locked in court.  I don't think a trans woman would be allowed to win gold medals and Grand Slams, they would change the rules immediately.

Davis annoyed people, Navratilova is a TERF, but off you go on your MRA support. MacKinnon thinks Davis looks a bit like a man with the 'eyes test'.

[wigginhall]

Davis annoyed people, Navratilova is a TERF, but off you go on your MRA support. MacKinnon thinks Davis looks a bit like a man with the 'eyes test'.

Where have I said Martina is a terf ?   MRA?

[jeremyp]

Where have I said Martina is a terf ?   MRA?

MRA = Men's Rights Activist

The idea originated (I think) with the perception that, in child custody battles, men don't get a fair hearing. However, it now refers to pretty much every situation where men are perceived by some to be discriminated against in respect of women, including a lot of situations that are bullshit.

[Nearly Sane]

MRA = Men's Rights Activist

The idea originated (I think) with the perception that, in child custody battles, men don't get a fair hearing. However, it now refers to pretty much every situation where men are perceived by some to be discriminated against in respect of women, including a lot of situations that are bullshit.

This implies that any situation where men are privileged is ok, because challenging it is just a perception. I don't think you mean that?

[jeremyp]

This implies that any situation where men are privileged is ok, because challenging it is just a perception. I don't think you mean that?

No. What you say is what some MRA’s think. For example, some MRAs would say positive discrimination in favor of women in relation to recruiting is unfair but they fail to recognize the historic bias against women.  It’s basically men who think feminism has already gone too far.

[Nearly Sane]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1105945831205687296.html

[Nearly Sane]

https://medium.com/@aniobrien/lets-talk-about-sex-self-id-6e617404bac3

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1105945831205687296.html

Whoever made this decision at the Met seems somewhat incompetent in tackling crime. It's bizarre to ignore biological sex stats, which could help explore the prominence of attributes influenced by hormones and cultural experience, and instead focus on gender self-identification, which is meaningless. Even more so where the offender has not undergone treatment to suppress or boost testosterone and sex reassignment surgery. The police could have recorded biological sex as well as gender - and used the biological sex as the relevant characteristic for determining the risk the offender posed to others, which should be the overriding consideration. 

What is interesting is the long-term study on transsexuals undergoing sex reassignment surgery:

"Regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8 ) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

It appears from this study that despite surgery and hormone treatment, men who become women retain male pattern criminality and women who become men adopt male pattern criminality.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

[Harrowby Hall]

I find Martina's comments odd as the Olympic committee has spent decades researching into gender and sport, and has been through various phases, e.g., genital inspection, chromosome analysis, and more recently hormone analysis.  There have been problems at every stage, for example, with chromosome analysis, there are individuals with mosaicism, where different cells in the body have XX or XY chromosomes.  They seemed to have settled on hormone analysis, thus requiring intersex women and trans women  to reduce testosterone, (which is meant to reduce athletic performance), but there is now a legal block on that.   It's extremely complicated.  Ironically, one of Martina's coaches was Renee Richards, well known trans tennis player.

I have just chosen this contribution to provide a place from which to review one of the variety of discussions in this thread.

In the BBC Radio 4 programme BBC Inside Science, broadcast at 16.30 today, there has been a discussion about gender, sex and sport. It will be available on iPlayer Radio or Sounds (or whatever they call it) if anyone is interested.

[Harrowby Hall]

I read this with interest. I found the phrase towards the end of the piece to be of particular relevance to the controversy regarding Sharron Davies(former Olympic  swimmer) when it said:

I listened to what Sharron Davies had to say about the potential unfairness of male to female transgender athletes competing in certain sports in the women's sections. What she had to say seemed to me to be eminently sensible. To label her transphobic or hateful towards transgender people was surely uncalled for, cruel and grossly inaccurate.

I found this on the BBC News website.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47640359

It is not a scientific paper but a journalistic comment but it is of interest.

[wigginhall]

This is particularly about women who are DSD , that is, with differences of sexual development (formerly intersex), and have a high testosterone level.   It is topical right now, as the case of Semenya is in court, as she is challenging the requirement to reduce levels of T.   But she is not trans, although it may have implications for trans athletes.   

[Nearly Sane]

Rape relief centre has funding withdrawn because it wants to be women only.



https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/20/discontinuation-of-grant-to-vancouver-rape-relief-shows-trans-activism-is-an-attack-on-women/

[Nearly Sane]

More on the attempts to defund rape crisis centre

https://www.vancourier.com/trans-woman-hopes-funding-cut-will-send-message-to-vancouver-rape-crisis-group-1.23670430

[Nearly Sane]

And retrospectively erasing women


http://thevelvetchronicle.com/jennie-hodgers-bravely-defied-sexist-norms-honoring-albert-cashier/

[Nearly Sane]

A huge worry in the more extreme ideas in TRA is the amount of medical intervention this has on children.



https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2019/04/22/the-trans-child-as-experimental-guinea-pig/