Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 131818 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #425 on: November 18, 2019, 01:47:47 PM »
This is a sad tale of how a small women only space became something completely different


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1195553358238453760.html

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #426 on: November 18, 2019, 06:31:40 PM »

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #427 on: November 18, 2019, 06:49:59 PM »
I am a small ripe pink lady.
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #428 on: November 18, 2019, 06:57:17 PM »
Rachel Dolezal was right apparently



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/18/whites-can-black-wish-says-lecturers-union/
If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is. 
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Walter

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #429 on: November 18, 2019, 07:19:22 PM »
I am a small ripe pink lady.
oh Robbie
You sound delicious 😍

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #430 on: November 18, 2019, 07:33:19 PM »
If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is. 

Honestly don't know how you can tell that. What's the method for calculating  % of social construct? What of gender is not a social construct?

The weirdest one though in the link is that being disabled can be self Id'ed


Walter

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #432 on: November 18, 2019, 08:34:57 PM »
Robbie
Firm and moist always goes together well 😘

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #433 on: November 19, 2019, 11:32:07 AM »
Honestly don't know how you can tell that. What's the method for calculating  % of social construct? What of gender is not a social construct?
There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.

Quote
The weirdest one though in the link is that being disabled can be self Id'ed
I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.
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Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #434 on: November 19, 2019, 11:47:00 AM »
If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is.

As with gender, it shouldn't matter - it's only because it does matter that we have the issue.  If we got to the point where black people could identify as white and people would accept it, that would be a step forward.

O.
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wigginhall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #435 on: November 19, 2019, 11:53:29 AM »
There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.
I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.

I assume you mean gender identity here.  Gender roles have been ripped away from sex, well, that was one of the battles of early feminism.  Gender expression is presumably still closely aligned with sex. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #436 on: November 19, 2019, 12:05:29 PM »
There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.
I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.
Sorry but I'm not getting this. What of gender is not a social construct?


Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #437 on: November 19, 2019, 12:07:09 PM »
As with gender, it shouldn't matter - it's only because it does matter that we have the issue.  If we got to the point where black people could identify as white and people would accept it, that would be a step forward.

O.
Sex does, however, matter. And any self ID doesn't erase the differences , they validate them

Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #438 on: November 19, 2019, 12:25:40 PM »
Sex does, however, matter. And any self ID doesn't erase the differences , they validate them

And is anyone saying that they've changed sex? Or are they saying that they've changed gender (or gender expression, as some would have it, I believe)?

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #439 on: November 19, 2019, 12:28:38 PM »
And is anyone saying that they've changed sex? Or are they saying that they've changed gender (or gender expression, as some would have it, I believe)?

O.

Have a look through the thread. There a strand in the trans rights movement that wants sex based rights of women removed because it is oppression of anyone who self ids as a women. Women's sport being an example.

Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #440 on: November 19, 2019, 12:36:13 PM »
Have a look through the thread. There a strand in the trans rights movement that wants sex based rights of women removed because it is oppression of anyone who self ids as a women. Women's sport being an example.

That's not a strand specific to the trans-rights movement, though, there are 'mens rights' activists and all-sorts who are claiming that equality means we shouldn't have sex-specific anything - I hasten to add, I don't agree with them, I just don't see that it's isolated to the trans community or trans-rights agitators.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #441 on: November 19, 2019, 12:40:30 PM »
That's not a strand specific to the trans-rights movement, though, there are 'mens rights' activists and all-sorts who are claiming that equality means we shouldn't have sex-specific anything - I hasten to add, I don't agree with them, I just don't see that it's isolated to the trans community or trans-rights agitators.

O.
  Don't see what difference that makes. I am using trans rights movement as an umbrella term. And MRAs aren't saying they should be allowed in women's toilets because they are women by self ID
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 12:44:59 PM by Nearly Sane »

Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #442 on: November 19, 2019, 12:50:51 PM »
  Don't see what difference that makes. I am using trans rights movement as an umbrella term. And MRAs aren't saying they should be allowed in women's toilets because they are women by self ID

Trans-women and trans-rights activists aren't saying that men should be allowed in women's toilets, either.

O.
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Walter

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #443 on: November 19, 2019, 12:56:30 PM »
Today I self ID as The Invisible Man and expect everyone to "pretend" they can't see me !

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #444 on: November 19, 2019, 12:57:50 PM »
Trans-women and trans-rights activists aren't saying that men should be allowed in women's toilets, either.

O.
Self ID as they have in Canada allows anyone to declare they are a woman and hence access toilets. Trans women are men in terms of sex. Sex based spaces are therefore erased.

Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #445 on: November 19, 2019, 12:58:43 PM »
Self ID as they have in Canada allows anyone to declare they are a woman and hence access toilets. Trans women are men in terms of sex. Sex based spaces are therefore erased.

Those aren't sex-based spaces, they are gender based spaces.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #446 on: November 19, 2019, 01:04:09 PM »
Those aren't sex-based spaces, they are gender based spaces.

O.
No, they are sex based spaces, just as women's sports are sex based.

Outrider

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #447 on: November 19, 2019, 01:16:06 PM »
No, they are sex based spaces, just as women's sports are sex based.

Women's sport is sex-based because there are biological checks (some of questionable value) which are done to ensure biological sex of the people taking part.  Toilets are assigned based on a gender expression in the general culture - there is no blood test, no DNA check, no sex-organ check... how is it a 'sex based' place?  Historically, given that there wasn't a cultural acceptance of the difference between sex and gender, it could be treated as though the two concepts were interchangable, but that's no longer the case.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #448 on: November 19, 2019, 01:19:54 PM »
Women's sport is sex-based because there are biological checks (some of questionable value) which are done to ensure biological sex of the people taking part.  Toilets are assigned based on a gender expression in the general culture - there is no blood test, no DNA check, no sex-organ check... how is it a 'sex based' place?  Historically, given that there wasn't a cultural acceptance of the difference between sex and gender, it could be treated as though the two concepts were interchangable, but that's no longer the case.

O.
That there is no check does not mean that it is not sexed based. Women fought for the right to have women's toilets because they didn't use to provide them because they were expected not to be in such places. That fight wasn't based on gender but on sex. Gender is a social construct that has no real meaning. If you are talking about gender, what is a women in those terms?

ETA: And while we are on sports self ID has been argued for there as well by some TRAs.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #449 on: November 19, 2019, 01:27:14 PM »
Thread from the Maya Forstater (sacked for believing in biology) case. Filled with gender nonsense.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1196746253050286080.html
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 05:33:14 PM by Nearly Sane »