Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 131159 times)

Nearly Sane

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Trans rights: a perspective
« on: August 17, 2018, 04:01:18 AM »
This comes across as an honest attempt to raise the issues around trans rights.



https://medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2018, 11:55:12 AM »
And this is one of those very few topics, I end up agreeing with The Spectator


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 12:32:10 PM »
And this is one of those very few topics, I end up agreeing with The Spectator


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/

Can't read it, not a subscriber.

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 12:37:41 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 12:48:20 PM »
Can't read it, not a subscriber.
Neither am I.

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 01:18:06 PM »
Neither am I.

It wants me to sign up for a free month. At the end of which I will forget to unsubscribe. Unless I’m missing something. Which I could be.

SteveH

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 01:22:45 PM »
And this is one of those very few topics, I end up agreeing with The Spectator


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/
Me too. As I've said before, it's all getting a bit silly.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 01:27:06 PM »
It’s difficult. Being female is one of the few things I am entitled to given my chromosomes. We need to treat trans people with compassion; that should extend to natal women as well.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2018, 01:57:22 PM »
It wants me to sign up for a free month. At the end of which I will forget to unsubscribe. Unless I’m missing something. Which I could be.
I think ages ago I registered and I get to read 2 or 3 articles a week, which would be the limit I could stomach. I find it useful as long as I avoid the Rod Liddle/James Delingpole/Taki crap.

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 02:06:19 PM »
I think ages ago I registered and I get to read 2 or 3 articles a week, which would be the limit I could stomach. I find it useful as long as I avoid the Rod Liddle/James Delingpole/Taki crap.

No, it wants me to give my payment details. One month free then 8.99 thereafter. Not gonna happen.

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 06:30:13 PM »
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

You can get the Spectator article free if you copy and paste the above.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2018, 06:42:06 PM »
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

You can get the Spectator article free if you copy and paste the above.
Ta!

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2018, 10:10:57 AM »
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

You can get the Spectator article free if you copy and paste the above.

Thanks for that. Makes a good (and rather depressing) point.

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2018, 05:34:07 PM »
Yes it does. There are stories of transwomen using women's changing rooms and exposing their penises, also raping women in women's prisons. A lot of people think that all transwomen have their male genitals removed, not so.

A poster has been distributed in the Bromley area, I read about but haven't yet seen one.
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/16184183.__39_Say_no_to_men_in_women__39_s_private_spaces___39__Poster_seen_in_Beckenham_causes_controversy/
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Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2018, 07:59:18 PM »
Yes it does. There are stories of transwomen using women's changing rooms and exposing their penises, also raping women in women's prisons. A lot of people think that all transwomen have their male genitals removed, not so.

A poster has been distributed in the Bromley area, I read about but haven't yet seen one.
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/16184183.__39_Say_no_to_men_in_women__39_s_private_spaces___39__Poster_seen_in_Beckenham_causes_controversy/

Isn't our thinking getting muddled here? As a woman I feel that women-only spaces maintain my privacy, not my safety. I've used gender neutral toilets and mixed gender changing rooms and never felt threatened. Is a trans woman exposing herself or getting changed? When it comes to women' prisons, we are talking about a very vulnerable group of women (most female inmates have been the victim of abuse of some kind and/or have mental health issues) . The solution there surely is a unit or units for trans women? Remember, trans women are themselves at risk of rape in male prisons regardless of their genitalia.

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2018, 09:29:07 PM »
Yes they are, very much so!
There are transmen too who must find themselves in extremely vulnerable situations.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2018, 11:51:29 PM »
As well as the above I've been reading elsewhere about this as I find it a difficult subject to get my head around, and a little uncomfortable about it too, my problem I know.

Anyway I came across the term "TERF" (just what the world needs another acronym) which stands for "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists" (I'm guessing Germaine Greer qualifies for this category), this group of people don't seem so very far removed from the hardcore Lesbians I knew in the late 70's who blamed men for everything and generally railed against the unfairness of all things masculine (except of course when they wore denim jackets).

None of the above advances the conversation much except it leads me back to the old saying that "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 08:27:37 AM »
As well as the above I've been reading elsewhere about this as I find it a difficult subject to get my head around, and a little uncomfortable about it too, my problem I know.

Anyway I came across the term "TERF" (just what the world needs another acronym) which stands for "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists" (I'm guessing Germaine Greer qualifies for this category), this group of people don't seem so very far removed from the hardcore Lesbians I knew in the late 70's who blamed men for everything and generally railed against the unfairness of all things masculine (except of course when they wore denim jackets).

None of the above advances the conversation much except it leads me back to the old saying that "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

I think the TERF acronym is, as with any such term, capable of being applied in many ways. I've seen it applied by some trans activists to anyone who questions whether trans rights might cause an issue for natal women. Anyone who argued that a woman's refuge might not be suitable to have someone identifying as a women has been called a TERF.

Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 10:02:13 AM »
I think the TERF acronym is, as with any such term, capable of being applied in many ways. I've seen it applied by some trans activists to anyone who questions whether trans rights might cause an issue for natal women. Anyone who argued that a woman's refuge might not be suitable to have someone identifying as a women has been called a TERF.

Yes, Robbie's comments above would have her labelled a TERF too. It gets us nowhere and fosters hate.


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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 11:52:59 PM »
Isn't our thinking getting muddled here? As a woman I feel that women-only spaces maintain my privacy, not my safety. I've used gender neutral toilets and mixed gender changing rooms and never felt threatened. Is a trans woman exposing herself or getting changed?

Well there are women only spaces that are there for privacy and women only spaces that are there for safety. There are also  women only spaces for fairness. In the last case, I am thinking of women's sports mainly.

The problem is that excluding trans women from women only spaces denies them their identity but having people who are physiologically male in those spaces may cause distress to some natal women. Whose rights do we consider the more important when we have conflicts of this kind? I don't think it's helpful to try to shut down the debate in the way that some trans-activists do.

In fact, I suspect the reason why they try to do this is because they know that, in the end, they'll have to accept that having a biologically male body does make a difference and they are going to have to make some compromises.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2018, 12:31:38 AM »
Well there are women only spaces that are there for privacy and women only spaces that are there for safety. There are also  women only spaces for fairness. In the last case, I am thinking of women's sports mainly.

The problem is that excluding trans women from women only spaces denies them their identity but having people who are physiologically male in those spaces may cause distress to some natal women. Whose rights do we consider the more important when we have conflicts of this kind? I don't think it's helpful to try to shut down the debate in the way that some trans-activists do.

In fact, I suspect the reason why they try to do this is because they know that, in the end, they'll have to accept that having a biologically male body does make a difference and they are going to have to make some compromises.

Multi-gender communal changing areas at swimming pools existed back in the 90's for families to use. Communal changing rooms in shop are a thing of the past, these days there are single cubicles. My local authority has done away with gendered toilets and has a row of identical cubicles accessed through an archway, each of which can be used by any gender, and several of which are equipped for disabilities and baby changing. One of the most popular cafes in town has one set of toilets with two cubicles and one area for hand washing etc.

I agree that closing down the debate is unhelpful and, being honest, to me as a woman it feels threatening. But seeing a penis in a changing room isn't that big a deal - in many parts of Europe mixed gender nudity isn't cause for concern - in Austria I stayed in a place with a spa where it was considered normal for both genders to partake together, and without bathing costumes. There has to be compromises, of course, and safety has to be paramount. Where the lines will end up being drawn, who knows.

Nearly Sane

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