Trans rights: a perspective

[wigginhall]

Yes, I think some feminists have accused some trans women of using conservative cues for femininity, e.g.,  mini-skirts and tons of make-up.   I don't know if this is true, or how many is some.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I think some feminists have accused some trans women of using conservative cues for femininity, e.g.,  mini-skirts and tons of make-up.   I don't know if this is true, or how many is some.

Have a look at the passing tips in the downloadable booklet in the link below.

http://genderedintelligence.co.uk/support/trans-youth/resources

[Nearly Sane]

One of the FTs top females in business isn't female.


https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

[Nearly Sane]

Bit of a rant but sometimes it's needed.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/so-brave-so-stunning-pippa-bunce-the-transvestite-rebranded/

[Nearly Sane]

And more suppression of women



https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/9i4tc9/the_times_girl_guide_leaders_expelled_for/

[SteveH]

I have serious doubts about this "self-identification" crap. If you've got bollocks and a dick, you're a bloke. I'd like to self-identify as a millionaire, but it wouldn't make me one.

[wigginhall]

I have serious doubts about this "self-identification" crap. If you've got bollocks and a dick, you're a bloke. I'd like to self-identify as a millionaire, but it wouldn't make me one.

It seems OK for you to self-identify as a bloke, but you are also claiming to identify others.   That's quite a big step in relation to identity, and personality.  I don't want to be told who I am, I had enough as that as a kid.  It also shows how unstable gender is, as some people are claiming it's biological, others, social and psychological.

[Rhiannon]

I agree with Wiggs. The issue around safeguarding of women and children is separate to the right of anyone to self-identify according to what they know about themselves. There has to be a discussion of how the former works along with the latter. But simply saying that your genitalia equals what you are is nonsensical when the experience of people says otherwise.

[wigginhall]

I agree with Wiggs. The issue around safeguarding of women and children is separate to the right of anyone to self-identify according to what they know about themselves. There has to be a discussion of how the former works along with the latter. But simply saying that your genitalia equals what you are is nonsensical when the experience of people says otherwise.

To me, it's behaviourism gone mad.   Why should someone else describe my identity to me?   Insane and tyrannical.  As I said, I spent half my life removing those attributes given to me by others.

[jeremyp]

I agree with Wiggs. The issue around safeguarding of women and children is separate to the right of anyone to self-identify according to what they know about themselves.

The only problem there is that certain activists are doing their best to make it impossible to separate the issues. For example, upthread there was a link to a story about people asking "is it safe for a self identifying trans woman to be a girl guide or a girl guide leader?" If it's considered trans-phobic to even ask the question, regardless of what the right answer is, the two issues are suddenly conflated.

[Nearly Sane]

Kathleen Stock on what she sees as the dangers of self ID.


https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/06/changing-the-concept-of-woman-will-cause-unintended-harms

[Nearly Sane]

Pretty much my thoughts.

https://mobile.twitter.com/notlongenoughto/status/1046289234372452355

[Rhiannon]

From that link to here.

https://www.byline.com/column/85/article/2300

[Nearly Sane]

I dread to think what an upbringing that Aimee Challenor had but it doesn't give her special privileges as regards denying a voice to natal women, and that some in the Lib Dems seem inclined to repeat the mistakes of the Green Party is depressing. I almost feel as if she is being used as well by the parties to spruce up their trans credentials without considering the real issues.

[Nearly Sane]

An Irish perspective


https://womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

[jeremyp]

From that link to here.

https://www.byline.com/column/85/article/2300

That’s horrific, but it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

For example, I’m not sure about why the Green Party are being criticized here, unless they took specific measures to prevent David Challenor from being brought to trial. Also, the whole thing seems to be quite alarmist. “This is what trans women will do if we let them have their way”. Well, I don’t know of any evidence that suggests that trans women are more likely to sexually assault people than cis males or that they are more likely to get away with it because they use tactics to shut down the debate about trans women and identity.

 

[Rhiannon]

That’s horrific, but it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

For example, I’m not sure about why the Green Party are being criticized here, unless they took specific measures to prevent David Challenor from being brought to trial. Also, the whole thing seems to be quite alarmist. “This is what trans women will do if we let them have their way”. Well, I don’t know of any evidence that suggests that trans women are more likely to sexually assault people than cis males or that they are more likely to get away with it because they use tactics to shut down the debate about trans women and identity.

I don't read it as that, but rather that we are in a hell of a mess and that a minority are using bullying tactics to close down debate.

I'm not sure of the timeline but it seems that Challenor was still active at the time of his trial? And what is that about care proceedings? It's very confused.

The only statistic that I'm aware of regarding trans women and sexual assault is that three quarters that are in jail and that haven't transitioned are there for sex offences. My personal experience of trans women is that they aren't misogynistic and pose a threat to nobody.

[Nearly Sane]

And how sex is viewed

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/14/biological-male-wins-womens-world-cycling-championship/?fbclid=IwAR1-kNgKKdbXvGMrCSCg5QyMc_XxGw3S1SCU3Scw1KaXxKjbdhp8TA3rV3E

[Nearly Sane]

That’s horrific, but it raises a lot of questions in my mind.

For example, I’m not sure about why the Green Party are being criticized here, unless they took specific measures to prevent David Challenor from being brought to trial. Also, the whole thing seems to be quite alarmist. “This is what trans women will do if we let them have their way”. Well, I don’t know of any evidence that suggests that trans women are more likely to sexually assault people than cis males or that they are more likely to get away with it because they use tactics to shut down the debate about trans women and identity.

So not checking about an agent being accused about sexual assault of children is ok? Never mind that being in the address that the assault was alleged?

[jeremyp]

So not checking about an agent being accused about sexual assault of children is ok? Never mind that being in the address that the assault was alleged?

Isn’t sexual assault a matter for the police?

Obviously, if somebody told the Green Party about the assault and they failed to follow up on it, that is criminally bad, but, unfortunately, not unprecedented. If they actively suppressed the case because Challener claimed to be trans, that’s worse. However, I’m not sure exactly what their role was. I need to read the story again.

[Rhiannon]

This is the problem I have. I’ve read the links but the timeline as to who knew what when, and what they did about it, is very confused.

[SteveH]

An Irish perspective


https://womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

I had to look up "terf" - it means "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". I suppose that makes me a temf, since I'm a moderate feminist (or pro-feminist, as sympathetic men are sometimes called, in which case I'm a temp). This self-identification nonsense has gone too far. If you're genetically male and have a male body, you're a man, howver much you like wearing dresses. Even if you have surgery, you'll only be equivalent to a woman who's had a total hysterectomy, and will have to take female hormones for the rest of your life.

[Rhiannon]

I don’t have a problem with self identification. I’ve been close to someone who is trans and actually I found that you can’t miss the woman that someone who is trans is, or has inside. It makes sense to allow for that to be recognised without demanding surgery and the like. The problem is that we don’t have boundaries yet. And we need them.

[Nearly Sane]

I think this is good from Carolyn Leckie


http://www.thenational.scot/news/16982498.questioning-gender-law-is-not-a-form-of-transphobia/?ref=mr&lp=1

[SteveH]

I think this is good from Carolyn Leckie


http://www.thenational.scot/news/16982498.questioning-gender-law-is-not-a-form-of-transphobia/?ref=mr&lp=1

And another thing - I'm increasingly tired of people sticking "-phobia" on the end of another word, instead of coming up with proper counter-arguments.