Trans rights: a perspective

[wigginhall]

I had to look up "terf" - it means "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". I suppose that makes me a temf, since I'm a moderate feminist (or pro-feminist, as sympathetic men are sometimes called, in which case I'm a temp). This self-identification nonsense has gone too far. If you're genetically male and have a male body, you're a man, howver much you like wearing dresses. Even if you have surgery, you'll only be equivalent to a woman who's had a total hysterectomy, and will have to take female hormones for the rest of your life.

Well, please stop telling me what identity I have.   You can call yourself whatever you like, but I am fucked off with having my own identity described for me.  Why should people go around saying to others, you're X and you're Y.   No thanks.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, please stop telling me what identity I have.   You can call yourself whatever you like, but I am fucked off with having my own identity described for me.  Why should people go around saying to others, you're X and you're Y.   No thanks.

Because self ID does that to others too. Telling kids that they are the wrong sex because they don't fit gender stereotypes does that too. Telling women that any bloke who self IDs can be in any safe space does that too.

[wigginhall]

Because self ID does that to others too. Telling kids that they are the wrong sex because they don't fit gender stereotypes does that too. Telling women that any bloke who self IDs can be in any safe space does that too.

The last one is a separate issue, Isn't it?  It doen't automatically follows from self ID.   As for kids, who's telling them what sex they are?   Well, everybody is of course, along the lines of Steve.

[Rhiannon]

Because self ID does that to others too. Telling kids that they are the wrong sex because they don't fit gender stereotypes does that too. Telling women that any bloke who self IDs can be in any safe space does that too.

Sorry, but this really is nonsense.

You are confusing sex with gender. Get that sorted and then join the conversation.

[Rhiannon]

Well, please stop telling me what identity I have.   You can call yourself whatever you like, but I am fucked off with having my own identity described for me.  Why should people go around saying to others, you're X and you're Y.   No thanks.

Increasingly I've come to think that gender is a spectrum, like sexuality is. Tom Robinson should have sung about being glad to be bi, but instead like most of us he thought he had to pick a side, and then he later changed sides. Life isn't so simple. My experience of being close to someone who is trans is that - at least in their case - they slipped between male and female and back again. I wonder if the reason that so many people who do transition feel no better after is that they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and should actually just be free to express themselves as both genders, or none. I am female and straight and even within that there is scope for more.

[wigginhall]

Sorry, but this really is nonsense.

You are confusing sex with gender. Get that sorted and then join the conversation.

Well, that confusion is quite prevalent.   Gender is not biological, except that now it is, as some people use it to refer to sex.  I suppose terms such as man and woman hover between the two.

One of the weird aspects of all this is that most people use self identification, in any case.

[wigginhall]

Increasingly I've come to think that gender is a spectrum, like sexuality is. Tom Robinson should have sung about being glad to be bi, but instead like most of us he thought he had to pick a side, and then he later changed sides. Life isn't so simple. My experience of being close to someone who is trans is that - at least in their case - they slipped between male and female and back again. I wonder if the reason that so many people who do transition feel no better after is that they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and should actually just be free to express themselves as both genders, or none. I am female and straight and even within that there is scope for more.

Yes, I am sympathetic to gender fluidity, but I don't know what goes on in gender clinics.   Do they really say to kids, you're the wrong sex?

[Rhiannon]

Well, that confusion is quite prevalent.   Gender is not biological, except that now it is, as some people use it to refer to sex.  I suppose terms such as man and woman hover between the two.

One of the weird aspects of all this is that most people use self identification, in any case.

We have to separate out biology, sex and gender, otherwise neither natal nor trans women are going to have safe spaces.

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry, but this really is nonsense.

You are confusing sex with gender. Get that sorted and then join the conversation.

No, some of those wanting self ID are doing that. That's the danger


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/10/new-childrens-book-transgender-boy/

[Nearly Sane]

Well, that confusion is quite prevalent.   Gender is not biological, except that now it is, as some people use it to refer to sex.  I suppose terms such as man and woman hover between the two.

One of the weird aspects of all this is that most people use self identification, in any case.

But self ID has an impact on others when enshrined in law.

[wigginhall]

I actually was involved in gender studies, and we had the distinction, sex (biological), Gender (social and psychological), and sexuality.  But this has all slipped sideways, once people started using gender to mean sex.

Self identification, as I was saying, has always been used, but trans people have ruffled feathers by opting for a different identity, than the one given to them, as Steve describes it, you are a man, because I say so.

[Nearly Sane]

Here's the report from the Student paper on the issue with Edinburgh University's Rector referred to in the Carolyn Leckie piece

[Nearly Sane]

I actually was involved in gender studies, and we had the distinction, sex (biological), Gender (social and psychological), and sexuality.  But this has all slipped sideways, once people started using gender to mean sex.

Self identification, as I was saying, has always been used, but trans people have ruffled feathers by opting for a different identity, than the one given to them, as Steve describes it, you are a man, because I say so.

No, some transgender people are conflating sex and gender as if there is no difference and that's what is causing the problems.

[ad_orientem]

Steve's the only one making sense. Personally I don't believe all the midwives throughout history who declared "It's a boy/girl!" based on a quick look at the genitals were mistaken or confusing gender with sex (whatever the bloody hell that's meant to mean anyway).

[SteveH]

Steve's the only one making sense. Personally I don't believe all the midwives throughout history who declared "It's a boy/girl!" based on a quick look at the genitals were mistaken or confusing gender with sex (whatever the bloody hell that's meant to mean anyway).

Sex and gender may not be exactly the same thing, but they're pretty closely related.

[wigginhall]

Sex and gender may not be exactly the same thing, but they're pretty closely related.

Well, traditionally gender referred to masculinity, and sex to maleness, not the same thing at all, although gender has changed its meaning.  I think NS has a good point about some trans people conflating them.  But if a boy persists in saying "I'm a girl", it's very dangerous to tell them they're wrong.

[Rhiannon]

But self ID has an impact on others when enshrined in law.

Yes, this to me is the issue. There is nothing wrong with self ID; the question is where are the boundaries around that.

[Rhiannon]

Sex and gender may not be exactly the same thing, but they're pretty closely related.

No, think of gender things - wearing a dress - in another culture or another time 'dressing like a woman' would be how masculine men dress. It's all a construct. Sex though, that is biological.

[Rhiannon]

I actually was involved in gender studies, and we had the distinction, sex (biological), Gender (social and psychological), and sexuality.  But this has all slipped sideways, once people started using gender to mean sex.

Self identification, as I was saying, has always been used, but trans people have ruffled feathers by opting for a different identity, than the one given to them, as Steve describes it, you are a man, because I say so.

I think that what you can't get away from is that some trans women hate natal women. I've seen some seriously vicious stuff online. And also I object to how some people define 'female' - it isn't about wearing silk and pearls, it's about bleeding every month and trying to manage a body that feels as though it is escaping from you. I do feel like for some it is about erasing what it means to be a natal woman. Why we can't reclaim the difference between sex and gender when having this discourse is beyond me.

[wigginhall]

No, think of gender things - wearing a dress - in another culture or another time 'dressing like a woman' would be how masculine men dress. It's all a construct. Sex though, that is biological.

Yes, there are lots of transferable things like dresses, and ear-rings, which have crossed over.   I had an American girl-friend who was horrified at how I crossed my legs,  too girly or something.

[wigginhall]

I was just thinking how much anxiety is caused by sex/gender.   It suggests that it is a shifting set of identities, but then maybe it has always been anxiety making.  I remember the shibboleths of masculinity, that I had drummed into me as a kid, with a kind of religious ferocity.  It still puzzles me.   My dad used to say, no, men don't kiss each other, as if it was like murder.  My son kissed him once, and he looked like he'd been shot.   Of course, Freud would say he wanted it.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, there are lots of transferable things like dresses, and ear-rings, which have crossed over.   I had an American girl-friend who was horrified at how I crossed my legs,  too girly or something.

I grew up in the 80's, there was so much play then around gender, make-up, flamboyance. Steve Strange, Adam Ant, David Sylvian...Then the Stone Roses showed up and it all disappeared overnight. I wonder sometimes how much happier some men would be if they could just put some make-up on, some peacock colours and style their hair, maybe that would solve some of the inner conflict. But no, we all got pushed back in our boxes.

[Rhiannon]

I was just thinking how much anxiety is caused by sex/gender.   It suggests that it is a shifting set of identities, but then maybe it has always been anxiety making.  I remember the shibboleths of masculinity, that I had drummed into me as a kid, with a kind of religious ferocity.  It still puzzles me.   My dad used to say, no, men don't kiss each other, as if it was like murder.  My son kissed him once, and he looked like he'd been shot.   Of course, Freud would say he wanted it.

When my son wants to wind his dad up he paints his nails before he sees him.

[Aruntraveller]

I think that what you can't get away from is that some trans women hate natal women. I've seen some seriously vicious stuff online.

That, unfortunately, is not a one way street. I was reading a report in the gay press last week of horrendous comments by some natal women against trans women:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/12/fair-play-for-women-tweets-1000-cancers/

This debate, like so many others in our society, has become so polarised that I find it hard to see a way forward.

It is a shame that both sides cannot see the harm that is done by resorting to the same kind of viciousness that is actual felt about both groups in other parts of society.

I can't help feeling that this polarisation is not helping with the following deeply worrying facts:

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/third-transgender-people-victim-hate-crime/

[Nearly Sane]

That, unfortunately, is not a one way street. I was reading a report in the gay press last week of horrendous comments by some natal women against trans women:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/12/fair-play-for-women-tweets-1000-cancers/

This debate, like so many others in our society, has become so polarised that I find it hard to see a way forward.

It is a shame that both sides cannot see the harm that is done by resorting to the same kind of viciousness that is actual felt about both groups in other parts of society.

I can't help feeling that this polarisation is not helping with the following deeply worrying facts:

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/third-transgender-people-victim-hate-crime/

I think that portraying both sides by their extremes is part of the problem. Indeed, it's not really clear what the sides are here it isn't natal women on one side and trans women on the other.