Trans rights: a perspective

[Rhiannon]

That, unfortunately, is not a one way street. I was reading a report in the gay press last week of horrendous comments by some natal women against trans women:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/12/fair-play-for-women-tweets-1000-cancers/

This debate, like so many others in our society, has become so polarised that I find it hard to see a way forward.

It is a shame that both sides cannot see the harm that is done by resorting to the same kind of viciousness that is actual felt about both groups in other parts of society.

I can't help feeling that this polarisation is not helping with the following deeply worrying facts:

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/third-transgender-people-victim-hate-crime/

There's no excuse for hate speech. Women are as good at hating as men.

I agree that the polarisation isn't helping. My feeling is that there are a very few, very vocal trans activists who are the visible face of the trans community, and their views on everything from natal women to transitioning to self identification are accepted as being representative as those of the trans community. And generally they bear little resemblance to the views of anyone trans that I know. Maybe the media has a role to play when considering who to give air time to.

It doesn't help when we have stories like the one recently about a sex offender reoffending in a women's prison. I think it is something like three quarters of trans people in jail are there for sex offences. But that is still a very small number of people and it doesn't change the fact that trans women are far, far more likely to be victims; they are very vulnerable to sexual assault.

I have this visceral feeling that it is wrong for men - or trans women - to want to take my biology from me and make it their own (I'm talking about conception and birth here, not just physical bodies). There is a sense that what it means to be born a woman is being erased. Is that right, is that logical on my part? I don't know. But at the same time I am deeply convinced that allowing self-identification is about far more than just tolerance and politeness. There seems to be a very patronising tone in some of that.

I agree, it is so messed up and I don't know how we will go forward with this.

[jeremyp]

No, some of those wanting self ID are doing that. That's the danger


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/10/new-childrens-book-transgender-boy/

Your link doesn't support your point.

[Nearly Sane]

Your link doesn't support your point.

Yes, it does since it looks at stereotyped aspects of gender to be the determinant about sex.

[jeremyp]

No, think of gender things - wearing a dress - in another culture or another time 'dressing like a woman' would be how masculine men dress. It's all a construct. Sex though, that is biological.

Yes, but whether you like the girl things or the boy things of your particular culture is strongly correlated with your biological sex even if the link is not genetic.

I also think it is a bit simplistic to say gender identity is about things like what clothes you wear and so on. I have a close female friend who never wears dresses, always trousers. She loves lots of stereotypically masculine things like football and DIY, but she identifies as a woman.

[jeremyp]

Yes, it does since it looks at stereotyped aspects of gender to be the determinant about sex.

I don't think it does. Can you point out some language from it where it confuses sex and gender?

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think it does. Can you point out some language from it where it confuses sex and gender?

The idea that what gender sterotypes you chose are about choosing a sex to identify as .

[jeremyp]

The idea that what gender sterotypes you chose are about choosing a sex to identify as .

Where does it say that. I don't see anywhere it does.

[Nearly Sane]

Where does it say that. I don't see anywhere it does.

It touts the idea that there is a simple link. It emphasisrs the gender stereotypes as being what are significant .

[jeremyp]

It touts the idea that there is a simple link. It emphasisrs the gender stereotypes as being what are significant .

You were arguing that it confuses sex and gender. Is this new point about confusing gender and gender stereotypes in addition to, or in place of your previous argument?

I think this new point has validity. The book seems to assume that, if you are a girl that likes doing the things that boys like, then you are identifying as a boy.  In my experience, this is not necessarily true.

[Nearly Sane]

You were arguing that it confuses sex and gender. Is this new point about confusing gender and gender stereotypes in addition to, or in place of your previous argument?

I think this new point has validity. The book seems to assume that, if you are a girl that likes doing the things that boys like, then you are identifying as a boy.  In my experience, this is not necessarily true.

  I think it's impossble to emphasise the importance of gender sterotypes in relation to sex without conflating gender and sex. The discussion overall is about what it means to be a woman and if the stereotypes are emphasised it then portrays the sex as mere gender.

[jeremyp]

  I think it's impossble to emphasise the importance of gender sterotypes in relation to sex without conflating gender and sex. The discussion overall is about what it means to be a woman and if the stereotypes are emphasised it then portrays the sex as mere gender.

Gender stereotypes are not the same as biological sex. Gender stereotypes are cultural, as Rhiannon pointed out upthread.

[Nearly Sane]

Gender stereotypes are not the same as biological sex. Gender stereotypes are cultural, as Rhiannon pointed out upthread.

Yes, that's the point I making. That's where I see the book and some trans activists conflating gender stereotypes and gender with biological sex and as Rhiannon put it, erasing her sex.

[wigginhall]

There's no excuse for hate speech. Women are as good at hating as men.

I agree that the polarisation isn't helping. My feeling is that there are a very few, very vocal trans activists who are the visible face of the trans community, and their views on everything from natal women to transitioning to self identification are accepted as being representative as those of the trans community. And generally they bear little resemblance to the views of anyone trans that I know. Maybe the media has a role to play when considering who to give air time to.

It doesn't help when we have stories like the one recently about a sex offender reoffending in a women's prison. I think it is something like three quarters of trans people in jail are there for sex offences. But that is still a very small number of people and it doesn't change the fact that trans women are far, far more likely to be victims; they are very vulnerable to sexual assault.

I have this visceral feeling that it is wrong for men - or trans women - to want to take my biology from me and make it their own (I'm talking about conception and birth here, not just physical bodies). There is a sense that what it means to be born a woman is being erased. Is that right, is that logical on my part? I don't know. But at the same time I am deeply convinced that allowing self-identification is about far more than just tolerance and politeness. There seems to be a very patronising tone in some of that.

I agree, it is so messed up and I don't know how we will go forward with this.

It doesn't have to be logical.   I support trans people mainly, and many of them seem to say "I feel like X", often a man or a woman.   Well, they are presumably telling the truth, they do feel like X, although I might not understand it.   

But your feelings are also real, and why should anyone dismiss them?  I hope that eventually there is some common ground, but a period of agitation and anger is inevitable, although it can get too nasty, e.g., Mumsnet.

I think the trans movement is very disruptive, but hopefully it will die down, and arrangements made that most people are comfortable with.   I can hope.

[Nearly Sane]

It doesn't have to be logical.   I support trans people mainly, and many of them seem to say "I feel like X", often a man or a woman.   Well, they are presumably telling the truth, they do feel like X, although I might not understand it.   

But your feelings are also real, and why should anyone dismiss them?  I hope that eventually there is some common ground, but a period of agitation and anger is inevitable, although it can get too nasty, e.g., Mumsnet.

I think the trans movement is very disruptive, but hopefully it will die down, and arrangements made that most people are comfortable with.   I can hope.

While I cannot understand what it feels to someone who says that they feel like a member of the opposite sex, surely that applies to them in that they cannot understand what it is to be a member of the opposite sex?

[wigginhall]

While I cannot understand what it feels to someone who says that they feel like a member of the opposite sex, surely that applies to them in that they cannot understand what it is to be a member of the opposite sex?

I don't understand most gender stuff.   For example, I don't know what being a man feels like, is it what I feel like?  How would I know that?  I can see that there are stereotypes, for example, machismo.   And various things have been attributed to me as a male, but so what?  I think gender is often in the third person, but subjectively I am full of uncertainty.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, but whether you like the girl things or the boy things of your particular culture is strongly correlated with your biological sex even if the link is not genetic.

I also think it is a bit simplistic to say gender identity is about things like what clothes you wear and so on. I have a close female friend who never wears dresses, always trousers. She loves lots of stereotypically masculine things like football and DIY, but she identifies as a woman.

Seriously?

[Rhiannon]

While I cannot understand what it feels to someone who says that they feel like a member of the opposite sex, surely that applies to them in that they cannot understand what it is to be a member of the opposite sex?

This is where I was, until I met a man who looked at me and his eyes were a woman's. Strangest thing. They will never understand the lived experience that I have, any more that I can theirs, but he is also female - I saw it.

[wigginhall]

Yes, my oldest friend, who was a Sufi, was very womanly in many ways, and often contemplated transitioning, but never did.   

I just said to my wife, that when I young, gender seemed like chains, or a cage, and gradually I got out of it, so now I don't know who I am, in a good way, and nobody is going to tell me.  I'm just a placeholder, that's good enough.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't understand most gender stuff.   For example, I don't know what being a man feels like, is it what I feel like?  How would I know that?  I can see that there are stereotypes, for example, machismo.   And various things have been attributed to me as a male, but so what?  I think gender is often in the third person, but subjectively I am full of uncertainty.

Yep, I think that it is an area of huge uncertainty, and yet we often see that as a weakness in discussion. So I think that has led some to the more extreme positions on the issue. One of the issues raised by some trans people against the more successfully heard trans movement is that those who are transsexual and have gone through the considerable effort that entails are being erased by transgender which is a much more fluid descriptor.

Then we have on top of that the issue of sexuality, so that some of the transgender movement don't see why those members of a sex wisex same Sex attraction, should be allowed to refuse to be attracted to them if they identify with th e gender that matches that sex. Hence the protest of some lesbians at Pride because they too feel erased. 

[Nearly Sane]

This is where I was, until I met a man who looked at me and his eyes were a woman's. Strangest thing. They will never understand the lived experience that I have, any more that I can theirs, but he is also female - I saw it.

What do you mean by woman and female here?

And presumably you have also met a number of trans people of whom you would not make that statement?

[Rhiannon]

What do you mean by woman and female here?

And presumably you have also met a number of trans people of whom you would not make that statement?

Isn't this the problem? Labels? I'm with Wiggs, not everyone has to pick a side.

[wigginhall]

Isn't this the problem? Labels? I'm with Wiggs, not everyone has to pick a side.

I reckon a lot of people don't.  I have a hunch that trans women have been going into changing rooms and toilets for years without anybody noticing or caring.  But I know that self identification changes this.

[Nearly Sane]

Isn't this the problem? Labels? I'm with Wiggs, not everyone has to pick a side.

Explaining what you mean isn't just about labelling, and unfortunately law only really works in the area of labelling. If no labels, then no safe spaces for women.

[Rhiannon]

I reckon a lot of people don't.  I have a hunch that trans women have been going into changing rooms and toilets for years without anybody noticing or caring.  But I know that self identification changes this.

Quite. I did notice once. Did I care? No. We were both too busy trying frocks on.

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/academics-are-being-harassed-over-their-research-into-transgender-issues

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/17/transgender-law-reform-has-overlooked-womens-rights-say-mps