Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective (Read 131376 times)

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #125 on:** October 17, 2018, 10:58:22 AM »

No, Pink News, it's not an incredible achievement.

https://twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1051915615005540357

Meanwhile surely Caster Semenya just needs to self ID?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/athletics/45880309

SteveH · « **Reply #126 on:** October 17, 2018, 11:26:04 AM »

And that's another thing about trans people: men are, on average, stronger and faster than women, so a trans woman, born a man, will have an unfair advantage in some sports.

Rhiannon · « **Reply #127 on:** October 17, 2018, 12:04:11 PM »

Which is why there needs to be discussion and dialogue, with boundaries put in place.

wigginhall · « **Reply #128 on:** October 17, 2018, 04:19:29 PM »

Quote from: Steve H on October 17, 2018, 11:26:04 AM

And that's another thing about trans people: men are, on average, stronger and faster than women, so a trans woman, born a man, will have an unfair advantage in some sports.

Although some sports, e.g., IOC, require a period of hormone treatment, resulting in low testosterone, which reduces muscle mass. I think the FA also do this, don't know about other sports. I have read a few trans women, saying that their athletic performance dipped quite a lot after HRT.

jeremyp · « **Reply #129 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:32:38 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 16, 2018, 01:48:59 PM

Yes, that's the point I making. That's where I see the book and some trans activists conflating gender stereotypes and gender with biological sex and as Rhiannon put it, erasing her sex.

Please point out where the book does that.

jeremyp · « **Reply #130 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:33:19 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on October 16, 2018, 02:21:47 PM

Seriously?

Yes.

jeremyp · « **Reply #131 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:42:46 PM »

Quote from: Steve H on October 17, 2018, 11:26:04 AM

And that's another thing about trans people: men are, on average, stronger and faster than women, so a trans woman, born a man, will have an unfair advantage in some sports.

That's easy to resolve. The only reason that we separate sports by sex is because we recognise that biological females are, on average, at a significant physical disadvantage. This is probably exaggerated at the top end of the scale. For example, Serena Williams couldn't beat any man in the top 200 at tennis or even number 203. People who are biologically male can not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #132 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:53:58 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 07:42:46 PM

That's easy to resolve. The only reason that we separate sports by sex is because we recognise that biological females are, on average, at a significant physical disadvantage. This is probably exaggerated at the top end of the scale. For example, Serena Williams couldn't beat any man in the top 200 at tennis or even number 203. People who are biologically male can not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Which as per my link to Pink News Tweet isn't what some trans think.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #133 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:55:44 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 07:32:38 PM

Please point out where the book does that.

Already done. It regards gender stereotypes as covering sex.

Rhiannon · « **Reply #134 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:59:14 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 07:33:19 PM

Yes.

I can't believe you didn't get that I was already making the point that you made. Or that I've ever been someone who pays heed to gender stereotypes.

wigginhall · « **Reply #135 on:** October 17, 2018, 08:44:42 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 07:42:46 PM

That's easy to resolve. The only reason that we separate sports by sex is because we recognise that biological females are, on average, at a significant physical disadvantage. This is probably exaggerated at the top end of the scale. For example, Serena Williams couldn't beat any man in the top 200 at tennis or even number 203. People who are biologically male can not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Well, the IOC have been investigating this for 40 years, and have gone through various approaches, e.g., physical examination, chromosome analysis, and now they are focusing on hormone analysis. So they are allowing trans women with low testosterone to compete in women's events. Whether this is biologically male or female, I don't know, not being an endocrinologist. Ironically, the intersex athletes such has Semenya, do have high testosterone, but used to be required to lower it, although not now, I think.

jeremyp · « **Reply #136 on:** October 17, 2018, 08:52:15 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 17, 2018, 07:53:58 PM

Which as per my link to Pink News Tweet isn't what some trans think.

I'm sure that's what some trans people think, but they are clearly wrong.

Edit: The original wording of the above reversed the meaning of what I wanted to say. Apologies to anybody who has already replied.

jeremyp · « **Reply #137 on:** October 17, 2018, 08:52:50 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 17, 2018, 07:55:44 PM

Already done. It regards gender stereotypes as covering sex.

No it wasn't. You have been talking in generalities. Give me a quote.

jeremyp · « **Reply #138 on:** October 17, 2018, 08:56:02 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on October 17, 2018, 07:59:14 PM

I can't believe you didn't get that I was already making the point that you made. Or that I've ever been someone who pays heed to gender stereotypes.

Sorry. That's why I was confused by your "really?" I thought it seemed a bit aggressive considering I was supporting your point. I apologise that my wording didn't make that clear.

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #139 on:** October 17, 2018, 08:56:41 PM »

Does anyone remember Richard Raskind? He was an amateur tennis player who - at the age of 41 - underwent surgery and left the operating room as Renee Richards. Renee Richards was 6'2" tall.

Richards played tennis as a woman and reached 20 in the world rankings. When challenged that Richards was physically male, his/her surgeon stated:

Quote

"With respect to Dr. Richard's internal sex, due to the operation I performed, one would say that Dr. Richards' internal sexual structure is anatomically similar to a biological woman who underwent a total hysterectomy and ovariectomy, Aside from being unable to reproduce, Richards should be considered a woman, classified as a female and allowed to compete as such”.

At the time, the qualifying condition for considering a player to be a female was the presence of Barr bodies in the cell nucleus. Barr bodies are the discarded parts of X-chromosomes which do not form part of the genotype.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #140 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:01:11 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 08:52:50 PM

No it wasn't. You have been talking in generalities. Give me a quote.

About what? You have already agreed gender as stereotype is aboutsex. I am struggling to understand what you think.

jeremyp · « **Reply #141 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:08:32 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 17, 2018, 09:01:11 PM

About what? You have already agreed gender as stereotype is aboutsex. I am struggling to understand what you think.

It's not about what I think. You said the book confuses gender, gender stereotypes and sex. This is what you wrote:

"That's where I see the book and some trans activists conflating gender stereotypes and gender with biological sex"

I read the article and I am at a loss to see how you drew that conclusion about the book. So please humour me and give me a quote from the article which shows the book conflates gender, gender stereotyping and biological sex.

wigginhall · « **Reply #142 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:11:07 PM »

Yes, I remember Renee Richards. In athletics, the most controversial case has been Semenya, who is of course, not trans.

It will be interesting to see if IOC rules do provide a level playing field, so that trans women athletes do not have an advantage. But of course, they keep changing the rules!

In fact, the court of arbitration ruled that high testosterone does not lead to better performance, so time for a rethnk.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #143 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:30:26 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 09:08:32 PM

It's not about what I think. You said the book confuses gender, gender stereotypes and sex. This is what you wrote:

"That's where I see the book and some trans activists conflating gender stereotypes and gender with biological sex"

I read the article and I am at a loss to see how you drew that conclusion about the book. So please humour me and give me a quote from the article which shows the book conflates gender, gender stereotyping and biological sex.

Confused, you have already accepted that gender stereotypes not about sex, and yet the book is about gender stereotypes?

Rhiannon · « **Reply #144 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:38:57 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on October 17, 2018, 08:56:02 PM

Sorry. That's why I was confused by your "really?" I thought it seemed a bit aggressive considering I was supporting your point. I apologise that my wording didn't make that clear.

Oh, ok. No worries.

Rhiannon · « **Reply #145 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:40:21 PM »

Clearly there are some sports where it doesn't matter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/motorsport/45881331

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #146 on:** October 19, 2018, 08:50:42 AM »

Not immediately related - but read on for an environmental suggestion for the origin of individual sexuality. It is not dissimilar to Simon Baron Cohen's suggestion for the cause of autism.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45887691

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #147 on:** October 25, 2018, 01:22:42 PM »

Women reduced to a bodily fuction, menstruators, to avoid offending trans women.

https://mobile.twitter.com/guardian_b2b/status/1055353012426686464?fbclid=IwAR1yjLJq3UqfQ7CoD-Fq9ds_xTYPNFFOSJwK-KdzffJlk3HFdNmPEZT1PX8

Rhiannon · « **Reply #148 on:** October 25, 2018, 01:27:19 PM »

And post menopausal women, pregnant women, women without wombs and women who use contraception that stops menstruation temporarily.

Not all natal women bleed.

Agree that it's a shit term though.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #149 on:** October 25, 2018, 01:32:52 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on October 25, 2018, 01:27:19 PM

And post menopausal women, pregnant women, women without wombs and women who use contraception that stops menstruation temporarily.

Not all natal women bleed.

Agree that it's a shit term though.

No,I think this is the Guardian being scared of using the term women for one reason.

News:

Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective (Read 131376 times)

Rhiannon

Rhiannon

Rhiannon

Rhiannon

Rhiannon