Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

Lesbians and bisexual women are now erased by the triumph of gender above sex and sexuality (the great lost Jane Austen book)


https://mobile.twitter.com/LGBTfdn/status/1055126781374746626

[Rhiannon]

It’s so depressing. Do men feel as hated as women do?

[Nearly Sane]

It’s so depressing. Do men feel as hated as women do?

Caitlin Moran did a Twitter thread about this which was very interesting.

[jeremyp]

Women reduced to a bodily fuction, menstruators, to avoid offending trans women.

And post menopausal women, pregnant women, women without wombs and women who use contraception that stops menstruation temporarily.

Not all natal women bleed.

Agree that it's a shit term though.

Since it was a survey on how period pain affects people who have periods at work, you'd expect the survey to concentrate on women who menstruate or, as the survey says, have menstruated in the past.

I don't think this is the Guardian trying to avoid offending trans women so much as coming up with a succinct term for "women who have experienced period pain". I agree it's a shit term though and it fails to properly describe the group of women who took part in the survey.

[Nearly Sane]

Since it was a survey on how period pain affects people who have periods at work, you'd expect the survey to concentrate on women who menstruate or, as the survey says, have menstruated in the past.

I don't think this is the Guardian trying to avoid offending trans women so much as coming up with a succinct term for "women who have experienced period pain". I agree it's a shit term though and it fails to properly describe the group of women who took part in the survey.

And which of women who are menstruating, have menstruated, or due to specific medical reasons haven't menstruated are going to be worried about the term women?

It's a sop to transgender, and erases women as a term.

[Nearly Sane]

Sarah Ditum on the TV drama Butterfly



https://sarahditum.com/2018/10/27/trans-drama-butterfly-is-rejection-and-sexism-dressed-up-as-social-justice-tv/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[jeremyp]

And which of women who are menstruating, have menstruated, or due to specific medical reasons haven't menstruated are going to be worried about the term women?

Where's your evidence that the Guardian was trying to avoid offending anybody?

It's a sop to transgender, and erases women as a term.

Rubbish.

[Nearly Sane]

Where's your evidence that the Guardian was trying to avoid offending anybody?
Rubbish.

Why did they change it from the Yougov survey?

[jeremyp]

Why did they change it from the Yougov survey?

\
Well I'm not a mind reader and neither are you.

[Nearly Sane]

Well I'm not a mind reader and neither are you.

So changing it is evidence of nothing?

[jeremyp]

So changing it is evidence of nothing?

You are confused. You are not looking for what it is evidence of but for evidence for your hypothesis as to why it was changed.

I could advance the alternate hypothesis that the author was simply looking for a one word term to describe the sample of the survey*. There's about as much evidence for my hypothesis as yours. On the other hand, the article did use the word "women" elsewhere which, I think, is a minus point for your hypothesis.

* note that even then Guardian acknowledges the term was wrong - they have changed the article.

[Nearly Sane]

You are confused. You are not looking for what it is evidence of but for evidence for your hypothesis as to why it was changed.

I could advance the alternate hypothesis that the author was simply looking for a one word term to describe the sample of the survey*. There's about as much evidence for my hypothesis as yours. On the other hand, the article did use the word "women" elsewhere which, I think, is a minus point for your hypothesis.

* note that even then Guardian acknowledges the term was wrong - they have changed the article.

Why were they looking for another word? And given the Guarduan has changed it, that's just further evidence .

[Nearly Sane]

Free speech irony


https://medium.com/@JonnnyBest/free-speech-and-bullshit-the-truth-to-power-cafe-71a671cfa1c2

[Rhiannon]

Caitlin Moran did a Twitter thread about this which was very interesting.

Is that the toxic masculinity one?

[Nearly Sane]

Is that the toxic masculinity one?

Yep, the very one.

[jeremyp]

Why were they looking for another word?

Who gives a fuck? Maybe they wanted to keep the word count down.  Anyway, I'm challenging your hypothesis. It's for you to provide the evidence.

You also haven't addressed the fact that the Guardian was happy to use the term "women" elsewhere in the article.

And given the Guarduan has changed it, that's just further evidence .

What do you mean "further"? You haven't provided any evidence yet.

In any case, the Guardian's stated reason was that the language didn't align with the language of the survey, which is true.

[Rhiannon]

Who gives a fuck? Maybe they wanted to keep the word count down.  Anyway, I'm challenging your hypothesis. It's for you to provide the evidence.

You also haven't addressed the fact that the Guardian was happy to use the term "women" elsewhere in the article.
What do you mean "further"? You haven't provided any evidence yet.

In any case, the Guardian's stated reason was that the language didn't align with the language of the survey, which is true.

But has been pointed out, if this was about men and their sex lives they wouldn't be describe as 'ejaculators'.

At best it is clumsy.

[Nearly Sane]

Who gives a fuck? Maybe they wanted to keep the word count down.  Anyway, I'm challenging your hypothesis. It's for you to provide the evidence.

You also haven't addressed the fact that the Guardian was happy to use the term "women" elsewhere in the article.
What do you mean "further"? You haven't provided any evidence yet.

In any case, the Guardian's stated reason was that the language didn't align with the language of the survey, which is true.

How does 'women' increase the word count?

[jeremyp]

But has been pointed out, if this was about men and their sex lives they wouldn't be describe as 'ejaculators'.

At best it is clumsy.

I agree it was a shit term to use, apart from being inaccurate, it was clearly deeply offensive.

What I dispute is that the Guardian had any intent to erase the identity of women. I think they were just, as you say, clumsy.

[jeremyp]

How does 'women' increase the word count?

It would be a replacement, not for "women" but "women who have had period pain at work", which is the group of women in the survey.

Anyway, can I take the fact that you have shown no interest in defending your hypothesis means you have conceded the point?

[Nearly Sane]

It would be a replacement, not for "women" but "women who have had period pain at work", which is the group of women in the survey.

Anyway, can I take the fact that you have shown no interest in defending your hypothesis means you have conceded the point?

No, it was a deliberate action which resulted in lots of complaints from women who see this as part of an ongoing campaign to make the term women about gender rather than sex. This isn't an isolated incident.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting thread


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1055511561987674113.html

[Aruntraveller]

A point not covered unless Ive missed it, are there similar concerns/objections to MTF trans people?

As I have said before I find the issue confusing and one I personally find hard to comprehend, (I dont know what that says about me,  something very worrying probably)  what I genuinely find distressing is the hostility generated by the debate. A hostility the trans community could well do withiut. Thats not to say they dont have some responsibility for this state of affairs, but there has to be a recognition that this hostility feeds into the increasing number of attacks on trans people, and the tone of the dialogue needs to change.

I liked the approach of the blogger that NS linked to, which prompted above ramble.

[Rhiannon]

Trent, I've never felt hostility towards trans people (I say 'people' because one of my kids has a f to m trans friend). Not ever. I've loved the trans women I've known. But there is a feeling that some trans women want to erase female identity. I just don't get it.

Incidentally, I'm not aware of terfs attacking trans women. I think largely that's bigoted aresholes who do that.

[Aruntraveller]

Trent, I've never felt hostility towards trans people (I say 'people' because one of my kids has a f to m trans friend). Not ever. I've loved the trans women I've known. But there is a feeling that some trans women want to erase female identity. I just don't get it.

Incidentally, I'm not aware of terfs attacking trans women. I think largely that's bigoted aresholes who do that.

No I dont think most/any women are attacking trans women either, I was however reading an article in the gay press about the number of attacks and murders of trans people in the USA and think that the dialogue thus far is enabling the, as far as I can see, men to feel freer to do these horrible crimes. I'm not saying either side is more or less responsible just that the terms of the debate need to be rejigged to try to minimise the possibility of giving licence to bigots.