Trans rights: a perspective

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes it certainly has been interesting Rhiannon. Glad I came back in time to say bye. My opinion is your contributions were a lot more interesting and useful before because I really enjoyed your descriptive writing and it made me think, as you could express the compassion and emotion that I often lack as my approach is more analytical.

My impression is that more recently you seemed to fly off the handle a lot more, and I noticed you claiming you were considered a "stupid woman" if a man (PD the last time I was here) disagreed with your argument and that approach made me switch off to your argument. I would say arguments such as "women are there to be used" or accusing a man who disagrees with you of thinking you were j"ust a stupid woman" sounds like a "martyr complex". I don't think speaking about rape comes across as a martyr complex and I don't think that is what Steve meant when he made that comment, but I could be wrong, and you are certainly free to interpret Steve's comment that way if you want to.

I'm not the kind of person to try to persuade someone to stay if they want to go - I see people as autonomous individuals who are free to make up their own mind if leaving works for them rather than staying. Plus this forum is time consuming and arguing with people can be bruising so I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away from this forum. I don't consider this forum a safe space - it's a place to go to when you want your views challenged.

Hope you come back if you decide to post some of your more thoughtful stuff - they really made me think.

[SteveH]

I think that depends on how often those particular instances happen. Say there were a situation where maybe black people were being stopped and searched on a regular basis(purely hypothetical you understand ), is not the testimony of the people involved worth considering or are you just saying nah we'll ignore that because common sense/politician/officialdom tells me that's not true.

On occasions nearly all we have in some areas is particular instances from personal experience.

I'm not saying that "it" (whatever it may be) is definitely not true, just that a particular instance doesn't prove anything about the general situation. Police discrimination against blacks is no doubt widespread, but only proper statistics prove it, not one black person's experiences.

[Roses]

I'm not saying that "it" (whatever it may be) is definitely not true, just that a particular instance doesn't prove anything about the general situation. Police discrimination against blacks is no doubt widespread, but only proper statistics prove it, not one black person's experiences.

What an unpleasant little piece of work you are.

Stats you want, here they are.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest

[SteveH]

What an unpleasant little piece of work you are.

Stats you want, here they are.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest

I wasn't doubting it, you silly woman! I was simply pointing out an invalid argument. Something can be true, but a particular argument for it may be invalid, for example "some Americans are idiots; Donald Trump is an American; therefore Donald Trump is an idiot." He is, of course, but that argument doesn't prove it.

[Udayana]

My last post on this forum:

Rape victims apparently have 'martyr complexes'.

Bye, all, it's been interesting.

Hope not... I mostly agree with Gab's post:

Block-head comments need to be countered, though understand how you might feel.
 

[Roses]

I wasn't doubting it, you silly woman! I was simply pointing out an invalid argument. Something can be true, but a particular argument for it may be invalid, for example "some Americans are idiots; Donald Trump is an American; therefore Donald Trump is an idiot." He is, of course, but that argument doesn't prove it.

You gave the impression you were doubting it.

[Samuel]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread, but a question occurred to me...

If a person’s sense of gender identity is fundamentally influenced by their experience of a certain biology (like Rhiannon was describing with hecteproductivevsystem etc)... then what is the basis for a trans persons feeling of gender dysphoria? How can you feel you are something that you’ve never experienced?

It’s all so confusing

[SteveH]

You gave the impression you were doubting it.

Not to anyone capable of reading and understanding a simple sentence.

[Robbie]

I don't think so LR, I've read it throughly twice and understood what Steve meant. 
However what you said illustrates how easy it is to misunderstand. I just read the last three pages of this thread & there have been a few misunderstandings between posters.

Some issues trigger fear, anger, panic, depression in people who have personal experience of them. Not just the memories but the feelings we had at the time come flooding back, it's like being traumatised all over again.

I feel sad that Rhi has gone, I don't post here much but when I look at the forum and see that she has posted, I'm always eager to read what she said.

Gabriella I agree with your post. You're always very clear.

[Robbie]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread, but a question occurred to me...

If a person’s sense of gender identity is fundamentally influenced by their experience of a certain biology (like Rhiannon was describing with hecteproductivevsystem etc)... then what is the basis for a trans persons feeling of gender dysphoria? How can you feel you are something that you’ve never experienced?

It’s all so confusing

Bump. Didn't want Samuel's post to get lost.

[SteveH]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread, but a question occurred to me...

If a person’s sense of gender identity is fundamentally influenced by their experience of a certain biology (like Rhiannon was describing with hecteproductivevsystem etc)... then what is the basis for a trans persons feeling of gender dysphoria? How can you feel you are something that you’ve never experienced?

It’s all so confusing

I may have got this wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that there's a bit of the brain that's about twice as large in one sex as in the other (I can't remember which way round it is). People with gender dysphoria are often found to have the wrong size for their physical sex. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? (Spare us the obvious crack, LR!)

[Nearly Sane]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread, but a question occurred to me...

If a person’s sense of gender identity is fundamentally influenced by their experience of a certain biology (like Rhiannon was describing with hecteproductivevsystem etc)... then what is the basis for a trans persons feeling of gender dysphoria? How can you feel you are something that you’ve never experienced?

It’s all so confusing

Especially given the constant confusion of terms the terms gender and sex.

[SteveH]

I may have got this wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that there's a bit of the brain that's about twice as large in one sex as in the other (I can't remember which way round it is). People with gender dysphoria are often found to have the wrong size for their physical sex. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? (Spare us the obvious crack, LR!)

This may be what I was thinking of.

White/grey matter
In a 2013 meta-analysis, researchers found on average males had larger grey matter (GM) volume in bilateral amygdalae, hippocampi, anterior parahippocampal gyri, posterior cingulate gyri, precuneus, putamen and temporal poles, areas in the left posterior and anterior cingulate gyri, and areas in the cerebellum bilateral VIIb, VIIIa and Crus I lobes, left VI and right Crus II lobes.[2] [12]On the other hand, females on average had larger grey matter volume at the right frontal pole, inferior and middle frontal gyri, pars triangularis, planum temporale/parietal operculum, anterior cingulate gyrus, insular cortex, and Heschl's gyrus; bilateral thalami and precuneus; the left parahippocampal gyrus and lateral occipital cortex (superior division).[2] The meta-analysis found larger volumes in females were most pronounced in areas in the right hemisphere related to language in addition to several limbic structures such as the right insular cortex and anterior cingulate gyrus.[/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences#Amygdala

[Udayana]

Especially given the constant confusion of terms the terms gender and sex.

Gender seems to be a moveable feast. As a social construct it could be anything, male, female or sunbeam.

[wigginhall]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread, but a question occurred to me...

If a person’s sense of gender identity is fundamentally influenced by their experience of a certain biology (like Rhiannon was describing with hecteproductivevsystem etc)... then what is the basis for a trans persons feeling of gender dysphoria? How can you feel you are something that you’ve never experienced?

It’s all so confusing

Good question.  I don't think there is any clarity at all on this.  There is some research that seems to show that trans people share some features in the brain with people of the sex they claim to be.   However, I suspect that this is an early finding, and it is too soon to make much of it.

After that, you have a variety of explanations of gender.  I know that some trans people argue for a biological basis for trans, however, this is ironic, since feminists have often argued that gender is a cultural product.

Julia Serano is quite interesting, as she is an academic biologist, and trans, she has quite a bit of stuff online, and argues for "subconscious sex", which must mean innate.

And of course, there is a lot of ideology involved.

But then, if you have a kid who is desperate, and says I'm a girl/boy, contrary to birth sex, what are you to do?  You could tell them they're wrong, probably very risky.

PS, reading about trans people in India raises interesting questions, supposedly a 4000 year old tradition there, and they have had a certain cultural niche, as hijras, but they are also often looked down on.  But other cultures also seem to have trans, e.g., Hawaii.

[Udayana]

Just as with homosexuality there have always been people who feel that they have the wrong sex and different societies have dealt with these "abnormalities" (in a non-pejorative sense) in different ways. Hijra groups are common in India, essentially treated as a minority caste.

Not really seeing why people of different sex or gender should be treated differently to each other unless there is a danger of, or actual, offensive behaviour or acts. 
     

[wigginhall]

I thought that Christianity tried to suppress gays and trans people, because it was seen as immoral, contrary to Bible teaching, blah blah blah.   There are also arguments that patriarchy has also enforced uniformity, or tried to.

Then you get derepression, which is threatening, as all the boundaries become wobbly.

Sorry, I am talking about Europe and US, don't know the history in India, Hawaii, Native American (Two Spirit).

[Udayana]

Yes, that's how it has been here.

And in the East although, there has generally been more tolerance, patriarchal society certainly enforced the "norms" wherever it could.

Doesn't mean that that was/is best way to do things.

I can't relate to the "morality" argument at all. I suspect god only tells people what they want to hear? 

[wigginhall]

There is also a problem with cultural overlay.  Native Americans have resented the way that European anthropologists imposed various interpretations on Two Spirit people.  In fact, an early word used by them "berdache", was hated by various tribes, and was dropped.  And Two Spirit is different from trans as we understand it, the Wiki entry looks OK.  I notice Two Spirit groups on many Pride marches.

"In the reservation period, American missionaries denounced berdaches, government agents forced them to do men's work,  and boarding school teachers punished children for inappropriate gender behavior",  Encyclopedia of the Great Plains, online.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Good question.  I don't think there is any clarity at all on this.  There is some research that seems to show that trans people share some features in the brain with people of the sex they claim to be.   However, I suspect that this is an early finding, and it is too soon to make much of it.

After that, you have a variety of explanations of gender.  I know that some trans people argue for a biological basis for trans, however, this is ironic, since feminists have often argued that gender is a cultural product.

Julia Serano is quite interesting, as she is an academic biologist, and trans, she has quite a bit of stuff online, and argues for "subconscious sex", which must mean innate.

And of course, there is a lot of ideology involved.

But then, if you have a kid who is desperate, and says I'm a girl/boy, contrary to birth sex, what are you to do?  You could tell them they're wrong, probably very risky.

PS, reading about trans people in India raises interesting questions, supposedly a 4000 year old tradition there, and they have had a certain cultural niche, as hijras, but they are also often looked down on.  But other cultures also seem to have trans, e.g., Hawaii.

Is the argument that subconscious sex is one factor in gender? A bit like the nature vs nurture argument?

If a kid told me I'm a girl/boy, contrary to birth sex, my question would be how are they defining the words "girl" and "boy". If lots of people define those terms differently, then any public policy decisions should prioritise safeguarding of vulnerable people over individual definitions.

I would help trans people feel included with whatever gender they want to be included in where there aren't any safeguarding concerns. So if you are biologically a woman who wants to identify as a man that loves glitter and make-up (because why shouldn't an individual be free to define "manly" as loving glitter and make-up) and want to wear glitter and make-up when you step into a boxing ring, fine, but you need to fight someone in your weight and strength category who does't have a biological advantage over you that could result in you getting hurt. Same if you are biologically a man who identifies as a woman who loves getting into fist fights in bars and thinks that's a feminine way to behave - you can define feminine how you want but if you step into a boxing ring you can't have a weight or biological advantage over your opponent that could result in them getting hurt.

Testosterone may give you a biological advantage in certain situations - does oestrogen give you a biological advantage in other situations? There is a view that too much testosterone in the boardroom can lead to risky or reckless decisions that can harm a company's economic performance.   

[Udayana]

There is also a problem with cultural overlay.  Native Americans have resented the way that European anthropologists imposed various interpretations on Two Spirit people.  In fact, an early word used by them "berdache", was hated by various tribes, and was dropped.  And Two Spirit is different from trans as we understand it, the Wiki entry looks OK.  I notice Two Spirit groups on many Pride marches.

"In the reservation period, American missionaries denounced berdaches, government agents forced them to do men's work,  and boarding school teachers punished children for inappropriate gender behavior",  Encyclopedia of the Great Plains, online.

Yes. As these identities are socially constructed identities in one society will not have a 1-1 match in another. Hijra does not map directly to either "transgender" or "gay" in the west but a mix of both.

Thailand has many identities not recognized elsewhere.

[wigginhall]

That's interesting, as this seems to be an argument for social construction theories, if trans identities vary a lot.  I think over here, trans people get tired of the hunt for causation.  As the old song has it,  we're here and we're queer, get used to it.

[Nearly Sane]

That's interesting, as this seems to be an argument for social construction theories, if trans identities vary a lot.  I think over here, trans people get tired of the hunt for causation.  As the old song has it,  we're here and we're queer, get used to it.

The problem is that there is a strand in transactivism, and it appears to be the dominant one which says to natal women/lesbians 'You are not here'. That's where the analogy to gay rights breaks down.

[Nearly Sane]

And a good summary of discussions in Scottish Parliament and how self ID is erasing women's protections

https://mobile.twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1070987804111458304

[Nearly Sane]

From the most hated lesbian in Baltimore

https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/568221-how-i-became-the-most-hated-lesbian-in-baltimore?fbclid=IwAR0BhjbIJNyzbCJJgNLEVD9K_silJXcp38KxD_Ah-1wd83ULoRPuT_ao1gU