Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

And here is someone trying to erase Martina Navratilova's role for women and lesbians.

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/12/21/disciplining-martina-heretics-and-the-church-of-trans-normativity/?fbclid=IwAR2imcH3loClOcvVODkTkP7xn4D2WcKLNjlfWssE3tDx_WkUsOeM3HxOTK8

[Robbie]

I read something about that yesterday I think. Gosh, blimey, where will it all end?
Great Martina fan here, lovely, caring person, intelligent & insightful. It's quite upsetting.

[wigginhall]

From the most hated lesbian in Baltimore

https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/568221-how-i-became-the-most-hated-lesbian-in-baltimore?fbclid=IwAR0BhjbIJNyzbCJJgNLEVD9K_silJXcp38KxD_Ah-1wd83ULoRPuT_ao1gU

But she is obviously out to antagonize trans people, for example, by going to a meeting and calling a trans woman "he", and describes her "caricature of femininity". Pretty provocative stuff.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

From the most hated lesbian in Baltimore

https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/568221-how-i-became-the-most-hated-lesbian-in-baltimore?fbclid=IwAR0BhjbIJNyzbCJJgNLEVD9K_silJXcp38KxD_Ah-1wd83ULoRPuT_ao1gU

Those gay gentlemen in her discussion group received shortish shrift. Can't say it was "useless man" territory since nobody seemed to emerge with flying colours.

[wigginhall]

I find Martina's comments odd as the Olympic committee has spent decades researching into gender and sport, and has been through various phases, e.g., genital inspection, chromosome analysis, and more recently hormone analysis.  There have been problems at every stage, for example, with chromosome analysis, there are individuals with mosaicism, where different cells in the body have XX or XY chromosomes.  They seemed to have settled on hormone analysis, thus requiring intersex women and trans women  to reduce testosterone, (which is meant to reduce athletic performance), but there is now a legal block on that.   It's extremely complicated.  Ironically, one of Martina's coaches was Renee Richards, well known trans tennis player.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But she is obviously out to antagonize trans people, for example, by going to a meeting and calling a trans woman "he", and describes her "caricature of femininity". Pretty provocative stuff.

I think if a person was being hostile to me by labeling my concerns as phobic or by acting in a way I thought was misogynistic, which would make a reasonable discussion pretty impossible, I would be hostile back e.g. if they were trans by referring to them as their biological sex. We often see a lot of hostility and antagonism in discussions on here - it goes with the territory when discussing opposing beliefs about social policy. I personally don't subscribe to the idea that being a member of a minority group should let you off the hook from having to hear opinions that hurt your feelings. My perception is that trying to shut down opinions rarely makes them go away - it seems to result in a more divided society and the opinions keep resurfacing in other ways. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I find Martina's comments odd as the Olympic committee has spent decades researching into gender and sport, and has been through various phases, e.g., genital inspection, chromosome analysis, and more recently hormone analysis.  There have been problems at every stage, for example, with chromosome analysis, there are individuals with mosaicism, where different cells in the body have XX or XY chromosomes.  They seemed to have settled on hormone analysis, thus requiring intersex women and trans women  to reduce testosterone, (which is meant to reduce athletic performance), but there is now a legal block on that.   It's extremely complicated.  Ironically, one of Martina's coaches was Renee Richards, well known trans tennis player.

I think it probably needs a study of how trans athletes are performing in competitions over the next few years. My view would be that if there is a trend of trans women winning against biological females, the rules need changing to prevent them from competing in that category with an unfair advantage. This should also apply if there is a trend of trans men winning against biological males.

I don't think being inclusive of a minority should take priority over fairness in athletic competitions. Men tend to be taller than women, and I know height gives an advantage in certain sports such as swimming, and hormones aren't going to make a trans woman shrink as far as I know.

[wigginhall]

Well, that's what the Olympic committee have been investigating for about 50 years, more with intersex people than trans.  They have tried various approaches, but they tend to break down, and they are faced with the problem that some intersex women have a high level of performance.  So what do you do, ban them, or make them reduce their testosterone level?  Then of course, some people are taller - is this unfair in the high jump?

You find people with male chromosomes and female genitals, for example, so-called XY females.

[SteveH]

Well, that's what the Olympic committee have been investigating for about 50 years, more with intersex people than trans.  They have tried various approaches, but they tend to break down, and they are faced with the problem that some intersex women have a high level of performance.  So what do you do, ban them, or make them reduce their testosterone level?  Then of course, some people are taller - is this unfair in the high jump?

You find people with male chromosomes and female genitals, for example, so-called XY females.

This problem goes back at least to the late 60s, when I remember a Russian female runner was banned from competing in the Olympics as a woman because she was xxy or something, and had the musculature of a man.

[wigginhall]

In fact, it goes back to the 30s.  There was a Polish athlete who failed a chromosome test in 1967, and promptly gave birth!  And there are women who are androgen insensitive, so can have high levels of testosterone.   Some intersex babies  used to be operated on, but this seems to have stopped, as they were often designated as female, sometimes with disastrous results.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Well, that's what the Olympic committee have been investigating for about 50 years, more with intersex people than trans.  They have tried various approaches, but they tend to break down, and they are faced with the problem that some intersex women have a high level of performance.  So what do you do, ban them, or make them reduce their testosterone level?  Then of course, some people are taller - is this unfair in the high jump?

You find people with male chromosomes and female genitals, for example, so-called XY females.

I think maybe it depends on how much influence an X or Y chromosome has on muscle mass, heart size, lung size, height, amount of fast-twitch muscle fiber as to whether chromosomes are the determining factor in allowing someone to compete in a particular category.

If testosterone gives an unfair advantage - maybe they could categorise races and athletic competitions based on testosterone levels over a certain period of time assessed by regular testing - similar to weight divisions in boxing. Of course people could cheat on the hormone tests as they do now with drug testing.

[wigginhall]

But then some male athletes have lower T levels than some women.  I wonder if the Olympics will give up policing this completely, as it is very complex.   Every time they think they have found a test for imposters, it fails.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There will always be an arbitrary element to any categorisation. The discussion seems to be to determine what criteria for categorisation society will be using this year - it could all change next year depending on people's needs. It could be a mix of chromosomes and hormones - depending on how much each of these influence athletic advantage - and there might not be a need for the male and female categories - see horse-racing. 

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/28/sport/horse-racing-male-female/index.html 

[wigginhall]

Another point being raised is that some intersex women look quite masculine, and have pronounced musculature, so are they being unfairly targeted for not looking feminine enough?   I don't know, but the well-known East German athletes who looked masculine, were often suspected of being imposters, but I think they retired, without being tested.  But intersex people are not cheats.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I agree that intersex people are not cheats. I think it is complicated but given there are objective measurements of attributes that may give athletic advantage such as muscle mass, hormone levels, height, lung size, heart size, it should be possible to arbitrarily categorise people with similar athletically advantageous attributes to compete against each other, and then it will be skill and technique that determine the winner, rather than height or sex or anatomy or hormone levels.

One of the conflicts in trans issues seems to be that some women want a space where they are not being told what they have to think or how they have to behave or conform to be considered "good women" as opposed to irrational idiots (which is presumably what a phobic /bigot is seen as) as that reminds them of their experiences of being pressured to conform under a misogynistic patriarchal system. It seems from the articles linked to, that they seem to want a less combative, less aggressive, more collaborative approach where people are sensitive to everyone's feelings and different voices are heard and disagreements do not have to be competitive i.e. where arguments need to be won, but instead people can agree to disagree without the creation of a victim and harm done just because someone is in disagreement with your concept of what is true or fair or good. So trans women who adopt a collaborative approach might well be welcomed in women-only spaces as they don't remind women of being under a patriarchy but trans women who adopt a combative approach are rejected.

On the other hand, as I have no experience of feminist gatherings other than going to a single-sex school, I do not know if these gatherings tended to be conducted in a collaborative way or if there were alpha-women who told other women what they should think and feel and do and there was no option to agree to disagree without a woman trying to convince you to think otherwise or without being accused by your sisters of some heresy or supporting oppression or harming the sisterhood.

[Nearly Sane]

just as aside to the question of women and sport, the great Lily Parr, lesbian icon.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lily_Parr

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Interesting article about Parr. From a social construct perspective, I like the idea that you can be immensely strong/ physically powerful and that can be considered a feminine attribute and is part of being a woman. I note that this idea is portrayed in the Marvel Avengers movies, especially the Dora Milaje in Black Panther, the bodyguards to the King, but also the political advisors and the genius scientist that the King relies on are also female. The historical basis in African society for this portrayal in the Black Panther movie is discussed here:

http://time.com/5171219/black-panther-women-true-history/

Regarding transgender women in sport and safe spaces for women and trans women, not sure if this Economist article has been mentioned before. It raises the following issue:

Most men do not rape or assault random women and children. Nevertheless, almost all societies accept the principle that, for the sake of women’s safety, all men should be kept out of female changing rooms, toilets and refuges. It is impossible to know how many crimes this prevents. However, the Times, a British newspaper, found that the minority of mixed-sex changing-rooms at sports centres were the site of 90% of reported sexual assaults in changing-rooms of all kinds.

This male propensity for violence has a bearing on self-id. Trans people want access to spaces that match their identity. That is partly because it affirms their gender. In the case of trans women, it is also because they are vulnerable to harassment and violence in male-only spaces such as changing-rooms....

...Though trans women would gain from being included in this way, that needs to be weighed against the risks. One question is question about "how much having a trans identity offsets the overwhelming male propensity to violence. Crime statistics do not settle the question, partly because the category “women” often now includes natal males.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/10/25/transgender-politics-focuses-on-who-determines-someones-gender

[Nearly Sane]

And a perspective on the effect of trans in women's sport.


https://fairplayforwomen.com/tw_in_sports/

[wigginhall]

And a perspective on the effect of trans in women's sport.


https://fairplayforwomen.com/tw_in_sports/

And another transphobic group - where do you keep finding them?

[Nearly Sane]

And another transphobic group - where do you keep finding them?

Generally amongst women who see their fight for equality being erased.

[wigginhall]

You should just call this thread anti-trans news, all the latest transphobic stuff, roll up, roll up.

[Nearly Sane]

You should just call this thread anti-trans news, all the latest transphobic stuff, roll up, roll up.

You're better than this simplistic ad hominem stuff.

[wigginhall]

You're better than this simplistic ad hominem stuff.

Irony.  I'm baffled that you are going along with these transphobic groups.  I think feminists who support them are very short-sighted, as the right wing are hovering.

[SteveH]

the right wing are hovering.

What's the left wing doing - going round in circles?

[Nearly Sane]

Irony.  I'm baffled that you are going along with these transphobic groups.  I think feminists who support them are very short-sighted, as the right wing are hovering.

More simplistic ad hominem. The idea that gender is more real than sex is a denial of the fight for sexual equality.