Trans rights: a perspective

[ad_orientem]

Irony.  I'm baffled that you are going along with these transphobic groups.  I think feminists who support them are very short-sighted, as the right wing are hovering.

So the pro trans agenda is beyond criticism?

[wigginhall]

What's the left wing doing - going round in circles?

Well, I meant that the right wing are taking up an anti-trans position, see the Spectator for example.   Labour has been supporting trans people, but I think apart from that, the left don't have any particular position, I think New Statesman has been anti-trans up to now..

[Nearly Sane]

So the pro trans agenda is beyond criticism?

There isn't a single pro trans agenda. There are different takes.

[SteveH]

Well, I meant that the right wing are taking up an anti-trans position, see the Spectator for example.   Labour has been supporting trans people, but I think apart from that, the left don't have any particular position, I think New Statesman has been anti-trans up to now..

'Twas a joke. I was pretending to think you meant literal wings, on a bird.

[Udayana]

Well, I meant that the right wing are taking up an anti-trans position, see the Spectator for example.   Labour has been supporting trans people, but I think apart from that, the left don't have any particular position, I think New Statesman has been anti-trans up to now..

You can't really simplify down to pro and anti factions as there are a number of different issues that don't line up.

[jeremyp]

And another transphobic group - where do you keep finding them?

That is a blatant ad hominem. Do you have anything to counter the argument made?

It seems to me that, if you allow trans women in women’s sport, it negates the point of having a separate category for women.

[jakswan]

And another transphobic group - where do you keep finding them?

Have to confess I'm almost afraid of this topic, generally the liberal in me thinks people should be allowed to be what they want to be, but I read the page you said is transphobic and I'm not seeing it.

[jeremyp]

Have to confess I'm almost afraid of this topic, generally the liberal in me thinks people should be allowed to be what they want to be, but I read the page you said is transphobic and I'm not seeing it.

I think it is this:

Fair Play For Women is an apolitical group of ordinary people from all walks of life who have come together to fight for women’s and girls’ rights. We are concerned that in the rush to reform transgender laws women’s voices will not be listened to. Run entirely by a team of volunteers with skills in many different disciplines, we have worked hard over the past year to bring this issue to public attention.

Women get called transphobic for simply asking questions. Women are afraid to speak out and fear for their jobs and reputation if they do. We are the voice of these women.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/about/

It's a group dedicated to fighting for the rights of biological females vis a vis biological males. I don't know if all their arguments stack up because I've only read the About page and the sport article, but I do think they have a point with respect to women's sports. The only reason for having separate competitions for women is because otherwise, they would not be able to compete at the highest level. If you allow trans women into the women's competitions it makes a mockery of that.

[Nearly Sane]

I think the answer to this is fairly obvious.

https://www.thearticle.com/can-biological-males-be-lesbians/

[wigginhall]

Just Stock beating the transphobic drum again.

[jeremyp]

Just Stock beating the transphobic drum again.

Why not engage with the arguments instead of just posting an ad hominem? Some of the concerns raised by the article do seem valid to me.

[wigginhall]

Why not engage with the arguments instead of just posting an ad hominem? Some of the concerns raised by the article do seem valid to me.

Well, NS has framed this thread around a series of transphobic articles.  It would be interesting to start from scratch, and look at what sex and gender and sexuality, mean, how they are nterrelated, or not, the history of gender studies, the rise of the trans movement, and so on.  This thread is mainly trans bashing, so it would be like discussing racism in a UKIP magazine.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, NS has framed this thread around a series of transphobic articles.  It would be interesting to start from scratch, and look at what sex and gender and sexuality, mean, how they are nterrelated, or not, the history of gender studies, the rise of the trans movement, and so on.  This thread is mainly trans bashing, so it would be like discussing racism in a UKIP magazine.

Your attempts to erase women do you no service. You once again resorted to ad hominem to dismiss Stock.  It's not transbashing at all. You seem unable to argue the case.

[jeremyp]

Well, NS has framed this thread around a series of transphobic articles.

Have you read the latest article NS posted? Can you point out how it is trans phobic?

This thread is mainly trans bashing, so it would be like discussing racism in a UKIP magazine.

Nonsense. Whatever you want to believe, the issue of trans rights does raise some concerns for some people. It does nobody any good to label everything trans phobic that is not exactly to the liking of trans women.

For example, the latest NS article claims that allowing trans women into traditionally safe spaces for women can be problematic and it gives the example of trans women demanding that lesbians be prepared to have sex with them. The article alleges that trans women sometimes bring their male characteristics with them when they transition. Now it might all be complete nonsense, but the article makes a case and if you disagree, you should answer the case rather than just say "transphobic".

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46963426

The US supreme court has upheld Trump's ban on transgender people serving in the military.

[Robbie]

I think the answer to this is fairly obvious.

https://www.thearticle.com/can-biological-males-be-lesbians/

There's nothing transphobic about this article. There are men who desire a sexual relationship with a woman or women but who are sexually turned on by themselves having the outward appearance of a woman, retaining their male genitals. They are not trans women, they are men. They cannot be lesbians & lesbians would not be interested in them.

It's not transphobic to state facts.

Women are now being marginalised as a subset of human beings who menstruate or who have menstruated. How insulting is that. Women are women - lesbians are women. We can self identify as we choose, dress and call ourselves as we like but that doesn't change basic facts. I could call myself a black person but it wouldn't make me one.

Some recent trends are quite frightening, especially for women.

Regarding Trump's ban on transgender people serving in the military, I haven't made my mind up about that, will have to give it more thought later. Thanks for posting the link lR.

[ad_orientem]

All bollocks!

[jeremyp]

I could call myself a black person but it wouldn't make me one.

That’s an interesting analogy. It’s generally considered acceptable for biological males to identify as women (and vice versa), but not for a white person to identify as a black person or vice versa. And that is in spite of the fact that the physical differences between white and black are pretty trivial in comparison to the physical differences between male and female.

[wigginhall]

There's nothing transphobic about this article. There are men who desire a sexual relationship with a woman or women but who are sexually turned on by themselves having the outward appearance of a woman, retaining their male genitals. They are not trans women, they are men. They cannot be lesbians & lesbians would not be interested in them.

It's not transphobic to state facts.

Women are now being marginalised as a subset of human beings who menstruate or who have menstruated. How insulting is that. Women are women - lesbians are women. We can self identify as we choose, dress and call ourselves as we like but that doesn't change basic facts. I could call myself a black person but it wouldn't make me one.

Some recent trends are quite frightening, especially for women.

Regarding Trump's ban on transgender people serving in the military, I haven't made my mind up about that, will have to give it more thought later. Thanks for posting the link lR.

Got any references to these men who are turned on by appearing as women?  Just curious who you mean.

[Robbie]

They are called autogynephiliac transwomen.
A colloquial name is 'transbian'

http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pubmed/22005209

https://genderanalysis.net/2016/04/alice-dreger-autogynophilia-and-the-misrepresentation-of-trans-sexualities-book-review-galileos-middle-finger/

(Can't get anything from first of those links now for some reason & clicking on second doesn't take to page tho' if I put in my browser, it does. However there is a lot more about subject on the internet. Sorry.)

[wigginhall]

They are called autogynephiliac transmen.
A colloquial name is 'transbian'

http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pubmed/22005209

alicedreger.com/autogyn

That term is not used in gender clinics and the NHS; I'm surprised you are using such pejorative terms..   They can't be trans men, who identify as men.  Your link doesn't work.

[Robbie]

I didn't know they were considered to be perjorative terms, wiggi. They are just words used to describe a particular type of person, not uncommonly so I understand.

I have no experience of gender clinics, most of us haven't!

I already know the links don't work, been trying to sort and can't. I mentioned it when editing the post. However there is quite a lot on the internet about this subject so don't take my word for it.

Might try to find something else later if I have time.

Sorry I meant trans women, not transmen. Careless. I've altered.

[wigginhall]

So do you think that children who identify as the opposite sex, are into sexual excitement?

[Robbie]

I am speaking of adults which you well know.

[jeremyp]

So do you think that children who identify as the opposite sex, are into sexual excitement?

I’m really not sure why you are doing this. Robbie was asked about men who are turned on by appearing as women. I don’t think it was ever implied that trans women are all trans women because they are turned on by appearing as women, much less children who identify as their non biological gender.