Trans rights: a perspective

[wigginhall]

I am speaking of adults which you well know.

Well, the idea of autogynephilia has been used about trans women, (although when I was a therapist, I met non-trans people who had such fantasies), so I am curious as to when it is supposed to begin.  It's not impossible that kids find trans identity exciting, and you seem well informed about it.

[Robbie]

I'm no more well informed than most posters on here but I do look things up, think about and read them which is what most of us do.  What prompted me was you saying that someone posted transphobic stuff; that surprised me. I could not, still cannot, see how any of it is transphobic. People are entitled to question and to seek to understand. One could say you are biased or have a vested interest, I don't know and neither do I want to know.

Since my last post I have been reading more about autogynephilia, in particular a writer called Miranda Yardley (I won't post any links because of the failure of the last two but there's plenty of stuff with her name on it), and she did say that some children present with autogynephilia.  So I have learned something.

Nowhere did I read that 'autogynephilia' is a perjorative term. 'Transbian' may be as it is more colloquial but that depends on context.

However I am now going to eat and try to think of other things for a while. Hopefully others will have something to say.

[wigginhall]

It's always useful to hear what trans people have to say.

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2018/03/autogynephilia-theory-that-ignores_10.html

[Robbie]

I'm back, thread draws me like a magnet, can't seem to leave it alone.

Thanks for the link, I read that last night and was looking for it earlier. I'll read again, cheers.

[Nearly Sane]

I think the article makes a lot of valid points but highlights the problem that the language we currently use is completely messed up.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/i-am-not-and-have-never-been-gender-dysphoric/

[wigginhall]

I think the article makes a lot of valid points but highlights the problem that the language we currently use is completely messed up.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/i-am-not-and-have-never-been-gender-dysphoric/

She seems to be saying that being a tomboy would get her labelled trans.  I don't think this is correct.  The consultants in gender clinics are familiar with tomboys and princess boys.  Assuming that she arrived in one, which is itself doubtful, they would ask her, "are you a boy?"   If she answers this insistently and persistently in the affirmative, they would start to consider her for treatment.  Then, later such kids may do a social transition, a change in names, clothes, pronouns, and so on.   This is a very tough task for a child or adolescent, and some back off here.  It's not fun and games, and the obvious alternative is that she is gender non-conforming.

[Nearly Sane]

She seems to be saying that being a tomboy would get her labelled trans.  I don't think this is correct.  The consultants in gender clinics are familiar with tomboys and princess boys.  Assuming that she arrived in one, which is itself doubtful, they would ask her, "are you a boy?"   If she answers this insistently and persistently in the affirmative, they would start to consider her for treatment.  Then, later such kids may do a social transition, a change in names, clothes, pronouns, and so on.   This is a very tough task for a child or adolescent, and some back off here.  It's not fun and games, and the obvious alternative is that she is gender non-conforming.

She makes very clear that she thinks she would have replied in the affirmative if asked, and continued to do so, and covers why. The point about children and adolescents is surely that they would not be assumed able to consent to surgery such as this for any other reason?

[Roses]

I have always been a tomboy, now an aging one. I never liked girly toys, clothes or makeup, this used to drive my mother crazy when I was a kid. In spite of that I am quite content to be a female, I have no wish to be a male.

[wigginhall]

She makes very clear that she thinks she would have replied in the affirmative if asked, and continued to do so, and covers why. The point about children and adolescents is surely that they would not be assumed able to consent to surgery such as this for any other reason?

I think you have to be 18.

[Nearly Sane]

But, of course, Navratilova is just a TERF



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/17/martina-navratilova-criticised-over-cheating-trans-women-comments?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[wigginhall]

But, of course, Navratilova is just a TERF



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/17/martina-navratilova-criticised-over-cheating-trans-women-comments?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Why is she talking about cheating?  Trans athletes and intersex athletes follow the rules of the IAAF and Olympic committee, and other bodies.  The athletes don't fix the rules.

[Nearly Sane]

This is good from Joan McAlpine


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1101251118611525633.html

[jeremyp]

Why is she talking about cheating?  Trans athletes and intersex athletes follow the rules of the IAAF and Olympic committee, and other bodies.  The athletes don't fix the rules.

A trans woman entering a female only sporting event has a built in physical advantage. If Roger Federer started identifying as a woman and started entering the women’s competitions, he would never lose.

[Nearly Sane]

Through the looking glass

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/a-collapsed-case-shows-the-perils-of-policing-transphobia/

[wigginhall]

A trans woman entering a female only sporting event has a built in physical advantage. If Roger Federer started identifying as a woman and started entering the women’s competitions, he would never lose.

If he followed the rules, he would take hormone blockers and estrogen, thus reducing his performance.  Intersex and trans athletes are following the rules, so how are they cheating?  The only trans tennis player I can remember was knocked out of the US Open in the first round (Renee Richards).

[Nearly Sane]

If he followed the rules, he would take hormone blockers and estrogen, thus reducing his performance.  Intersex and trans athletes are following the rules, so how are they cheating?  The only trans tennis player I can remember was knocked out of the US Open in the first round (Renee Richards).

Intersex is a separate issue. And treating transgender and transsexual as the same is for someone informed dishonest.


When I posted links to women's groups using scientific arguments on this, you simply declared it transphobic.

[Harrowby Hall]

If he followed the rules, he would take hormone blockers and estrogen, thus reducing his performance.  Intersex and trans athletes are following the rules, so how are they cheating?  The only trans tennis player I can remember was knocked out of the US Open in the first round (Renee Richards).

So how do hormone blockers and estrogen remake developed skeletal differences and musculature? There's not a single trans female with a female pelvis.

[wigginhall]

Intersex is a separate issue. And treating transgender and transsexual as the same is for someone informed dishonest.


When I posted links to women's groups using scientific arguments on this, you simply declared it transphobic.

They're not my scientific arguments.  It's the Olympics which requires reduction in testosterone.  To say that trans women cheat is bizarre, if they adhere to the rules.

[Nearly Sane]

They're not my scientific arguments.  It's the Olympics which requires reduction in testosterone.  To say that trans women cheat is bizarre, if they adhere to the rules.

I didn't say they were 'your scientific arguments'. I said that you dismissed the Fair play for women links as transphobic, and didn't engage with them.

[wigginhall]

So how do hormone blockers and estrogen remake developed skeletal differences and musculature? There's not a single trans female with a female pelvis.

Well, I'm not an endocrinologist, but the rules are supposed to reduce performance in trans and intersex athletes, to a comparable level.  Most trans athletes I have read about report a considerable diminishment.  Well, you can still argue that there is an advantage,  I don't know.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, I'm not an endocrinologist, but the rules are supposed to reduce performance in trans and intersex athletes, to a comparable level.  Most trans athletes I have read about report a considerable diminishment.  Well, you can still argue that there is an advantage,  I don't know.

And again, I posted links to the scientific arguments earlier, and you just dismissed them as transphobic without engaging with them at al l.

[jeremyp]

If he followed the rules, he would take hormone blockers and estrogen, thus reducing his performance.  Intersex and trans athletes are following the rules, so how are they cheating?  The only trans tennis player I can remember was knocked out of the US Open in the first round (Renee Richards).

You can’t completely negate a male physiology just by taking drugs.  No amount of oestrogen is going to shorten your long bones, for example.

[wigginhall]

You can’t completely negate a male physiology just by taking drugs.  No amount of oestrogen is going to shorten your long bones, for example.

What has that got to do with trans athletes cheating?  Are you saying that they are breaking Olympic and IAAF rules?

Actually, this point has lapsed, since Martina has apologizd for using the word 'cheat'.

[jeremyp]

Well, I'm not an endocrinologist, but the rules are supposed to reduce performance in trans and intersex athletes, to a comparable level.  Most trans athletes I have read about report a considerable diminishment.  Well, you can still argue that there is an advantage,  I don't know.

Never mind subjective reporting by individuals with a conflict of interest.

 What is the objective evidence that the hormonal treatments prescribed to trans women reduce their performance to the corresponding level for women that they had as a man?

[jeremyp]

What has that got to do with trans athletes cheating?  Are you saying that they are breaking Olympic and IAAF rules?

Actually, this point has lapsed, since Martina has apologizd for using the word 'cheat'.

I’m not concerned with whether trans women are cheating or not within one governing body’s rules but whether they are gaining an unfair advantage.