Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

This is a sad tale of how a small women only space became something completely different


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1195553358238453760.html

[Nearly Sane]

Rachel Dolezal was right apparently



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/18/whites-can-black-wish-says-lecturers-union/

[Robbie]

I am a small ripe pink lady.

[jeremyp]

Rachel Dolezal was right apparently



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/18/whites-can-black-wish-says-lecturers-union/

If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is. 

[Walter]

I am a small ripe pink lady.

oh Robbie
You sound delicious 😍

[Nearly Sane]

If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is. 

Honestly don't know how you can tell that. What's the method for calculating  % of social construct? What of gender is not a social construct?

The weirdest one though in the link is that being disabled can be self Id'ed

[Robbie]

oh Robbie
You sound delicious 😍

Just for you:-
https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/gb/groceries/sainsburys-pink-lady-apple-single-c?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk8OTpsX05QIVjtDeCh19mwKYEAQYASABEgIUdPD_BwE&storeId=10151&langId=44&krypto=8KrhsWdhrrsm7hFJa40gktizFkNlINPMk1imN%2BxP5OTNqu34FiNROdPGWsy3BQb2FYRoeyYuoVRmiWnjPL8oHfQj%2Fxom8xSsfRCHCfCbjHfKHCSHnrHdbxFib4hxoE1yNwTT%2FK4l9%2FaqxMYmgan0xCzoMB0WilUlYebbDxVCnc7K6%2B8e2ZrQ00lWZbnJKeVBR6%2Bn4n0TIF1qpLZLTf45kVnGLxBnVeNl8gEwSTKJuOUiLITVdEgvVxaTJye1fYs17Dbpi3VPO5JH4QUmx1JhLWR6bJBdUSSD50VlEft1UAp0JFsg5bTYdMhwseHoUR5NdR4YN0sFcZ5G5nN3I0gKU7m79CiDKpUdyfA%2BBmTqTgM%3D&ddkey=https%3Agb%2Fgroceries%2Fsainsburys-pink-lady-apple-single-c

[Walter]

Robbie
Firm and moist always goes together well 😘

[jeremyp]

Honestly don't know how you can tell that. What's the method for calculating  % of social construct? What of gender is not a social construct?

There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.

The weirdest one though in the link is that being disabled can be self Id'ed

I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.

[Outrider]

If a man is allowed to identify as a woman and vice versa, then logically, a black should be allowed to identify as a white and vice versa. In fact, race is much more of a social construct than gender is.

As with gender, it shouldn't matter - it's only because it does matter that we have the issue.  If we got to the point where black people could identify as white and people would accept it, that would be a step forward.

O.

[wigginhall]

There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.
I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.

I assume you mean gender identity here.  Gender roles have been ripped away from sex, well, that was one of the battles of early feminism.  Gender expression is presumably still closely aligned with sex. 

[Nearly Sane]

There is a very strong correlation between gender and biological sex. I don't think that any correlation between biology and race holds up nearly as well.
I must have skimmed over that. I can't see any reason for identifying as disabled when you are really fully able except trying to game the system in some way e.g. you want to win medals in the Paralympics or  claim disability benefit fraudulently.

Sorry but I'm not getting this. What of gender is not a social construct?

[Nearly Sane]

As with gender, it shouldn't matter - it's only because it does matter that we have the issue.  If we got to the point where black people could identify as white and people would accept it, that would be a step forward.

O.

Sex does, however, matter. And any self ID doesn't erase the differences , they validate them

[Outrider]

Sex does, however, matter. And any self ID doesn't erase the differences , they validate them

And is anyone saying that they've changed sex? Or are they saying that they've changed gender (or gender expression, as some would have it, I believe)?

O.

[Nearly Sane]

And is anyone saying that they've changed sex? Or are they saying that they've changed gender (or gender expression, as some would have it, I believe)?

O.

Have a look through the thread. There a strand in the trans rights movement that wants sex based rights of women removed because it is oppression of anyone who self ids as a women. Women's sport being an example.

[Outrider]

Have a look through the thread. There a strand in the trans rights movement that wants sex based rights of women removed because it is oppression of anyone who self ids as a women. Women's sport being an example.

That's not a strand specific to the trans-rights movement, though, there are 'mens rights' activists and all-sorts who are claiming that equality means we shouldn't have sex-specific anything - I hasten to add, I don't agree with them, I just don't see that it's isolated to the trans community or trans-rights agitators.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

That's not a strand specific to the trans-rights movement, though, there are 'mens rights' activists and all-sorts who are claiming that equality means we shouldn't have sex-specific anything - I hasten to add, I don't agree with them, I just don't see that it's isolated to the trans community or trans-rights agitators.

O.

  Don't see what difference that makes. I am using trans rights movement as an umbrella term. And MRAs aren't saying they should be allowed in women's toilets because they are women by self ID

[Outrider]

  Don't see what difference that makes. I am using trans rights movement as an umbrella term. And MRAs aren't saying they should be allowed in women's toilets because they are women by self ID

Trans-women and trans-rights activists aren't saying that men should be allowed in women's toilets, either.

O.

[Walter]

Today I self ID as The Invisible Man and expect everyone to "pretend" they can't see me !

[Nearly Sane]

Trans-women and trans-rights activists aren't saying that men should be allowed in women's toilets, either.

O.

Self ID as they have in Canada allows anyone to declare they are a woman and hence access toilets. Trans women are men in terms of sex. Sex based spaces are therefore erased.

[Outrider]

Self ID as they have in Canada allows anyone to declare they are a woman and hence access toilets. Trans women are men in terms of sex. Sex based spaces are therefore erased.

Those aren't sex-based spaces, they are gender based spaces.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Those aren't sex-based spaces, they are gender based spaces.

O.

No, they are sex based spaces, just as women's sports are sex based.

[Outrider]

No, they are sex based spaces, just as women's sports are sex based.

Women's sport is sex-based because there are biological checks (some of questionable value) which are done to ensure biological sex of the people taking part.  Toilets are assigned based on a gender expression in the general culture - there is no blood test, no DNA check, no sex-organ check... how is it a 'sex based' place?  Historically, given that there wasn't a cultural acceptance of the difference between sex and gender, it could be treated as though the two concepts were interchangable, but that's no longer the case.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Women's sport is sex-based because there are biological checks (some of questionable value) which are done to ensure biological sex of the people taking part.  Toilets are assigned based on a gender expression in the general culture - there is no blood test, no DNA check, no sex-organ check... how is it a 'sex based' place?  Historically, given that there wasn't a cultural acceptance of the difference between sex and gender, it could be treated as though the two concepts were interchangable, but that's no longer the case.

O.

That there is no check does not mean that it is not sexed based. Women fought for the right to have women's toilets because they didn't use to provide them because they were expected not to be in such places. That fight wasn't based on gender but on sex. Gender is a social construct that has no real meaning. If you are talking about gender, what is a women in those terms?

ETA: And while we are on sports self ID has been argued for there as well by some TRAs.

[Nearly Sane]

Thread from the Maya Forstater (sacked for believing in biology) case. Filled with gender nonsense.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1196746253050286080.html