Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132306 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #525 on: December 12, 2019, 09:34:47 PM »

Nearly Sane

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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #528 on: December 19, 2019, 02:23:27 PM »
A slightly more positive news story about trans gender people

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-50660839

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #529 on: December 19, 2019, 05:10:38 PM »
A slightly more positive news story about trans gender people

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-50660839


Yep, that's all rather lovely.

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #530 on: December 19, 2019, 05:21:09 PM »
Ridiculous decision

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/18/test-case-rules-against-tax-expert-sacked-transgender-tweet/

Quite worrying too that someone can be sacked for speaking the obvious  truth. There was no 'hate', she stated a fact. This sets a precedent.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #531 on: December 19, 2019, 05:26:59 PM »
Quite worrying too that someone can be sacked for speaking the obvious  truth. There was no 'hate', she stated a fact. This sets a precedent.
It doesn't set a precedent as tribunals don't work quite that way. If appealled it could.

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Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #532 on: December 19, 2019, 05:33:08 PM »
Speaking the obvious truth can cause a lot of trouble, often best to avoid it...
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #533 on: December 22, 2019, 08:25:12 PM »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #534 on: December 23, 2019, 10:02:21 AM »
I think this issue should be legally scrutinised further. JK Rowling's support is helpful, provided she does not back-track through fear from the trans lobby. She could help further by donating towards Maya's crowd-funded legal fees.

From the legal documents submitted by Maya to court it appears her employer objected to Maya using the words "material reality" in relation to male and female as some colleagues objected to and found offensive the idea that there was a material reality for biological sex. The employer seems to be saying that people can identify as whatever sex (as opposed to gender) that they want.

The employer's stance contravenes Section 11 of the Equalities Act 2010, which has sex as a protected characteristic.

Schedule 3 allows services not to include people who have changed their sex per a Gender Recognition Certificate if it can be shown this is proportionate and meets a legitimate end. Schedule 9 of Act similarly allows employers to limit certain roles to those who have a particular sex by birth.

"This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified."

Parliament's Explanatory notes to the legislation state that " A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #535 on: December 23, 2019, 02:22:36 PM »
I think this issue should be legally scrutinised further. JK Rowling's support is helpful, provided she does not back-track through fear from the trans lobby. She could help further by donating towards Maya's crowd-funded legal fees.

From the legal documents submitted by Maya to court it appears her employer objected to Maya using the words "material reality" in relation to male and female as some colleagues objected to and found offensive the idea that there was a material reality for biological sex. The employer seems to be saying that people can identify as whatever sex (as opposed to gender) that they want.

The employer's stance contravenes Section 11 of the Equalities Act 2010, which has sex as a protected characteristic.

Schedule 3 allows services not to include people who have changed their sex per a Gender Recognition Certificate if it can be shown this is proportionate and meets a legitimate end. Schedule 9 of Act similarly allows employers to limit certain roles to those who have a particular sex by birth.

"This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified."

Parliament's Explanatory notes to the legislation state that " A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

I think JK Rowling would have been well advised to keep out of it because I am under the impression that we don't really have the full story. For example, I have read that the woman in question wasn't fired but her contract, which was fixed term, was not renewed (I haven't fact checked this, so it may not be true). What is definitely true is that she failed to call a customer by their preferred pronoun which she claims was a mistake. We are just hearing Maya's side of the story here and quite often in these cases, the plaintiff's side of the story omits some of the facts.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #536 on: December 23, 2019, 06:59:29 PM »
I think JK Rowling would have been well advised to keep out of it because I am under the impression that we don't really have the full story. For example, I have read that the woman in question wasn't fired but her contract, which was fixed term, was not renewed (I haven't fact checked this, so it may not be true). What is definitely true is that she failed to call a customer by their preferred pronoun which she claims was a mistake. We are just hearing Maya's side of the story here and quite often in these cases,  the plaintiff's side of the story omits some of the facts.
I disagree about JK Rowling staying out of it. Extremist elements of the trans lobby appear to be well-funded, so JK Rowling's money would be very useful in discovering another version of the 'truth' from the one the extremists in the trans lobby like to promote. Any attempt to discover 'truths' invariably involves spending a lot of money.

I am actually more interested in upholding the belief that biological sex is a material reality and a protected characteristic than I am about renewal of contracts. Per her witness statement to the courts, if Maya's contract was not renewed because she expressed the belief biological sex is a material reality, I find that worrying.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GSKWvdY2upHqAoc0veA35wZWPrpSBr10/view

Funding further legal examination of the issues involved in this story would be useful to balance out the well-funded biological male extremists' position that try to silence dissent from biological females.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 07:08:20 PM by Gabriella »
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wigginhall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #537 on: December 23, 2019, 08:53:34 PM »
I thought it was because Forstater made a series of transphobic tweets, misgendred trans people, and her colleagues were sick of her.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #538 on: December 23, 2019, 09:02:34 PM »
I thought it was because Forstater made a series of transphobic tweets, misgendred trans people, and her colleagues were sick of her.
Yeh saying Gregor Murray is a man by sex is transphobic. Facts get you sacked.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 09:39:08 PM by Nearly Sanity Clause »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #539 on: December 23, 2019, 10:43:35 PM »
I thought it was because Forstater made a series of transphobic tweets, misgendred trans people, and her colleagues were sick of her.
Not surprising. A lot of misogynists express that opinion of Maya Forstater. That would be misogynistic biological males trying to erase the reality of biological sex. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #540 on: January 08, 2020, 05:32:53 PM »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #541 on: March 06, 2020, 11:11:43 AM »
Heard on Radio 4 today a spokesman for World Rugby with a sports science background stating that the scientific evidence seems to show that suppressing testosterone does not negate the significant biological/ physical advantages that biologically male athletes have built up before they started suppressing their testosterone. He said the idea was for people on different sides of the debate to have a conversation so they can all appreciate each other's perspectives and understand that this is not a simple issue to solve. He seemed to suggest that fairness and safety of other players was the priority, while also trying to find somewhere for transgender athletes to play and feel included.   

World Rugby is looking into the need for a 'rugby-specific' transgender policy separate from IOC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51662872

Kelly Morgan, who, as Nicholas Gareth Morgan played teenage representative rugby for East Wales, accepted that her pre-transition past gave her an advantage over team-mates as she played women's rugby for Porth Harlequins Ladies.

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she told BBC Sport Wales in August. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #542 on: March 06, 2020, 03:54:23 PM »

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she told BBC Sport Wales in August. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

She can stop being selfish. She wants to play rugby but so do biological women and they want to play it on a level playing field without fear of serious injury.
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Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #543 on: March 06, 2020, 05:59:44 PM »
What is stopping her playing in a men's team?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now


Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #545 on: March 10, 2020, 05:41:07 PM »

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #546 on: March 10, 2020, 10:46:24 PM »
That's something I'll listen to. I've heard of other cases & they're troubling, it happens more often than we are led to believe.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #547 on: March 12, 2020, 08:47:39 AM »
This is something that I have heard, Robbie. Unfortunately, I do not have any references, but I have come across several stories about people who come to resent or reject their reassigned gender identities.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #548 on: March 12, 2020, 11:00:21 AM »
What is stopping her playing in a men's team?
Maybe men's teams won't let women play for safety reasons? Maybe she might get hurt in a men's game - unless the men do not play as competitively as they would normally play.

It seems strange that there are some activists who arbitrarily decided to prioritise the feelings and safety of transgender people over the feelings and safety of women - how did they calculate which should have higher priority?

It's a bit like the narrow focus of some corporations that decide that while accidents and deaths of others are "regrettable" a few accidents and deaths cost them less in the long run than spending time on researching and coming up with an alternative solution.
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Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #549 on: March 12, 2020, 03:02:05 PM »
Maybe men's teams won't let women play for safety reasons? Maybe she might get hurt in a men's game - unless the men do not play as competitively as they would normally play.

It seems strange that there are some activists who arbitrarily decided to prioritise the feelings and safety of transgender people over the feelings and safety of women - how did they calculate which should have higher priority?

It's a bit like the narrow focus of some corporations that decide that while accidents and deaths of others are "regrettable" a few accidents and deaths cost them less in the long run than spending time on researching and coming up with an alternative solution.

Well, she or he or they, played as a male prior to transition so that must have been safe enough. Maybe they think male rugby players will feel obliged to give way to a 6ft female?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now