Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132314 times)


Sassy

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #551 on: June 07, 2020, 02:10:00 PM »
There is a big difference between love and hate.
Just as the fact is that there is only two sexes. The genders are male and female. Because someone transgenders does not mean they are a different sex.
They have simply gone from male to female or vice versa. It is not necessary to know if someone has transgendered. They do not need rights. They just need to be allowed to live as
the sex they now are.   Whatever a persons view they have a right to that view as long as it is nothing which harms people physically. Employers do not have to tell others whom they have employed and the only people who need to know are medical because of the drugs they take in connection with their transformation.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #552 on: June 07, 2020, 08:29:58 PM »
Just a point of clarification, Sassy.
Sex and gender are not the same thing. You are correct when you say that there are two sexes - male and female, but gender is an expressive, culturally-determined continuum that goes between masculinity and femininity.

A transgendered person has not "gone from male to female or vice versa" - that is physiologically and anatomically impossible. They may have had surgical and pharmacological treatments what make them appear to be members of the sex they were not born into. The real changes they have undergone are behavioural and attitudinal.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #553 on: June 07, 2020, 08:33:00 PM »
Just a point of clarification, Sassy.
Sex and gender are not the same thing. You are correct when you say that there are two sexes - male and female, but gender is an expressive, culturally-determined continuum that goes between masculinity and femininity.

A transgendered person has not "gone from male to female or vice versa" - that is physiologically and anatomically impossible. They may have had surgical and pharmacological treatments what make them appear to be members of the sex they were not born into. The real changes they have undergone are behavioural and attitudinal.
Gender is regressive

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Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #555 on: June 08, 2020, 02:59:56 PM »
Good piece

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-and-the-road-to-terfdom/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting points.

To me at it strikes a chord on at least one issue. Time for Twitter to go. Unpopular opinion perhaps? I don't care.
It's ability to turn any debate into a binary situation is fucking annoying. It's lack of accountability, in that you can say anything without it being subject to the ordinary standards of Journalism (not even talking honesty here just the standards of journalism) is dangerous.

I know the same can be said for other social media platforms, but Twitter is just a shit show. It gives credence to the crass and bolsters the bigoted. I wish it did not exist.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 03:02:15 PM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #556 on: June 08, 2020, 03:13:10 PM »
Interesting points.

To me at it strikes a chord on at least one issue. Time for Twitter to go. Unpopular opinion perhaps? I don't care.
It's ability to turn any debate into a binary situation is fucking annoying. It's lack of accountability, in that you can say anything without it being subject to ordinary the standards of Journalism (not even talking honesty here just the standards of journalism) is dangerous.

I know the same can be said for other social media platforms, but Twitter is just a shit show. It gives credence to the crass and bolsters the bigoted. I wish it did not exist.
The effect of Twitter on this type of debate is one I have raised before. You can feel the pull to the extreme because you see so much of the other extreme. It has been clear on Brexit, Scottish independence, Covid 19, and this debate - but it also applies to any subject under the sun no matter how inconsequential.

In addition, even within sides, the pull to extreme views happens because of the problems of small differences which leads to the purity spiral - I've posted this article before but it's a good piece -
https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/


I am always careful of the idea of golden ages, and have seen this before many times without social media. I don't think that yoi can put Twitter back in Pandora's Box, and there are always instances of many small and big kindnesses, even on Twitter that give hope. That said, the proposed hate crime reform in Scotland may cause some problems, though as this article covers it may well have been Rowling who would be caught by it

https://wingsoverscotland.com/jail-time-for-joanne/

As with a lot of such reforms, I fear badly drafted legislation will lead to many unintended consequences that will make matters much worse.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #557 on: June 08, 2020, 03:30:49 PM »
As outlined that sounds like an unworkable piece of legislation.

I know there was no golden age. But we are descending into chaos. Only today I've had to factcheck 2 photographs that appeared on my timeline on fB  because my mind went " that's not right". My instinct was correct and my cousin (in this case) had been totally taken in and believed what he saw. How much worse is this going to get with "deepfake". Fucking depressed, my friend.

Anyway I've digressed enough from the thread and have nothing useful to add other than my usual plea for people to talk to each other in a reasonable fashion. I know, fuck all chance of that in this debate.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #559 on: June 10, 2020, 05:53:04 PM »
Good piece

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-and-the-road-to-terfdom/amp?__twitter_impression=true
One of the tweets in response to JK Rowling's latest tweet about menstruating people is that "'I disagree with her opinion that cis-women are the most vulnerable minority in this situation and I think she's on the wrong side of this debate." At least the person acknowledged that Twitter was the wrong forum for these discussions to take place.

It's very odd when it all become a competition about who gets raped more, who gets attacked more, who feels more traumatised and suicidal after an assault, whose life gets ruined more? After centuries, just as women finally start to feel like things are moving in the right direction to give them more protection, they get thrown under the bus because men who merely self-identify as women are suddenly more deserving of protection.

Who has the right to make the calculation that cis women's vulnerability is less important? It's not exactly surprising if there are many people fighting back against the notion that a certain number of vulnerable women being sexually assaulted by men who have gained access to them by pretending to be women is a price worth paying to protect the identity, and dignity of a minority of vulnerable trans women. That the trans lobby want to ignore this moral issue and want to silence the voices of those who bring it up rather than work towards discussions and solutions that protect cis women from being raped seems highly misogynistic to me.

It's amazing how easy some people seem to find it to make these calculations about how much trauma different groups of people should be put through. End of discussion - all those who don't agree with the dogma should be cast out of society immediately. Apparently people who accept their biological identity are less deserving of protection because....sexual assault for cis women is less traumatic than the trauma of people who feel mentally unstable because their biology is different from their current, self-proclaimed, arbitrary identity based on a feeling (which based on evidence may change a few years later as the mood takes them).

It's similar to the issue of complainants being automatically believed when they allege sexual assault or rape against a man - and his trauma in being arrested, and publicly shamed, potentially losing his job, his home and his family's trauma over a false allegation is considered less important. Not surprisingly that's an on-going discussion too because many people think it damages society to be so dismissive of someone else's very real trauma.
 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #560 on: June 10, 2020, 08:02:11 PM »
JK Rowling


https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
Glad she as written that - it must have been hard for her. I forgot that she was a survivor of sexual / domestic violence at the hands of a man. Glad she put that out there to try to counteract the "privileged white female" narrative that passes for discussion on Twitter.  Though fully expecting some people on Twitter to still try to dismiss the lived experiences and trauma of survivors of sexual violence, if they are white women and not transgender.

Who are the people physically attacking trans people - I assume it is men and not women who are the perpetrators, so why is the response to put women at risk and threaten women with violence? Because women are perceived by the trans extremists as weaker and easier to control?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #561 on: June 10, 2020, 11:14:35 PM »
Glad she as written that - it must have been hard for her. I forgot that she was a survivor of sexual / domestic violence at the hands of a man. Glad she put that out there to try to counteract the "privileged white female" narrative that passes for discussion on Twitter.  Though fully expecting some people on Twitter to still try to dismiss the lived experiences and trauma of survivors of sexual violence, if they are white women and not transgender.

Who are the people physically attacking trans people - I assume it is men and not women who are the perpetrators, so why is the response to put women at risk and threaten women with violence? Because women are perceived by the trans extremists as weaker and easier to control?
It's always men, and then of course there are transwomen attacking women. It doesn't mean all transwomen ars predators any more than all men are.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #562 on: June 11, 2020, 09:47:38 AM »
And some of the reactions to JK Rowling's tweets. Note not suitable for work, or indeed anywhere.


https://medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d


Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #564 on: June 11, 2020, 12:52:33 PM »
And some of the reactions to JK Rowling's tweets. Note not suitable for work, or indeed anywhere.


https://medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d

Well, that was disturbing.

Support for Rowling:

But singer Alison Moyet added: "Regardless how I feel about anything, I always hated a pile on since schooldays. Even against those that've been hateful to me. As it happens JK Rowling is not hateful.

"I see a woman convicted and hung and wonder where the same venom is for the men that do actual harm to all womankind."

That last sentence is key to me.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #565 on: June 11, 2020, 01:04:52 PM »
Well, that was disturbing.

Support for Rowling:

But singer Alison Moyet added: "Regardless how I feel about anything, I always hated a pile on since schooldays. Even against those that've been hateful to me. As it happens JK Rowling is not hateful.

"I see a woman convicted and hung and wonder where the same venom is for the men that do actual harm to all womankind."

That last sentence is key to me.


Yep, Alison Moyet is good on this - towards the end of last year she dropped off twitter for a while because of the abuse she was receiving. And it always seems to be women who receive the worst abuse on this.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #566 on: June 11, 2020, 06:44:48 PM »
Good piece

https://medium.com/@helensaxby1/jk-rowling-and-the-reality-of-sex-9acbc6310234?fbclid=IwAR1bBoSxWU1lWeEFSmDUblARGcRZxDuqSXNF40X_W4LWhEYIzjzRvwQhxUY
Very valid points. It makes no sense to point to the minority of people with biological sex development characteristics that do not correspond to their chromosomal makeup in this debate when the debate is about trans people whose biological sex development does correspond to their chromosomal makeup. 

And it makes no sense to require people to be courteous enough to not mention biological sex and biological sexual characteristics when discussing trans people. The key point is that people want to have a discussion about their concerns about letting biological males into spaces that are for biological females - whether that is sports, single sex changing rooms, shelters etc. That discussion requires pointing out that trans women have biological male characteristics that differentiate them from biological females and that is a reasonable basis for exclusion. There is a time and a place for being inclusive and it is misogynistic to demand that females who feel harmed by the presence of a biological male in their safe spaces are required to be inclusive. Especially given all the rape and sexual assault threats from the trans extremists with a penis towards females who question the trans dogma.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #567 on: June 12, 2020, 12:00:48 PM »
Interesting points.

To me at it strikes a chord on at least one issue. Time for Twitter to go. Unpopular opinion perhaps? I don't care.
Not unpopular with me. Twitter is a disaster for human communication.
Quote

It's ability to turn any debate into a binary situation is fucking annoying. It's lack of accountability, in that you can say anything without it being subject to the ordinary standards of Journalism (not even talking honesty here just the standards of journalism) is dangerous.

I know the same can be said for other social media platforms, but Twitter is just a shit show. It gives credence to the crass and bolsters the bigoted. I wish it did not exist.
Twitter amplifies the people who shout the loudest. Most people who read JK Rowing's comments will not have replied at all. Many of the people who did comment will be on her side. Many people who agree with her won't comment on Twitter because they know the shit show that will descend on them. The media will pick up on the tweets that vilify her because that's what makes the story.
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Nearly Sane

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #571 on: June 13, 2020, 07:18:10 PM »
Not unpopular with me. Twitter is a disaster for human communication.Twitter amplifies the people who shout the loudest. Most people who read JK Rowing's comments will not have replied at all. Many of the people who did comment will be on her side. Many people who agree with her won't comment on Twitter because they know the shit show that will descend on them. The media will pick up on the tweets that vilify her because that's what makes the story.
People have been banned from Twitter for saying men are not women, so I assume those who support JK Rowling will be having their conversations elsewhere. I have never used Twitter or Instagram etc but I sent JK Rowling an email of support after I read her recent essay.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #572 on: June 13, 2020, 07:24:02 PM »
Not unpopular with me. Twitter is a disaster for human communication.Twitter amplifies the people who shout the loudest. Most people who read JK Rowing's comments will not have replied at all. Many of the people who did comment will be on her side. Many people who agree with her won't comment on Twitter because they know the shit show that will descend on them. The media will pick up on the tweets that vilify her because that's what makes the story.
No, the main thing that makes this story is Rowling. I have seen women on twitter receive this sort of abuse continually for years for saying woman is  an adult human female. That didn't appear on the news, it didn't mean the Sun would do an execrable front page giving voice to a domestic abuser. Rowling has been brave here.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #573 on: June 13, 2020, 07:40:20 PM »
People have been banned from Twitter for saying men are not women, so I assume those who support JK Rowling will be having their conversations elsewhere. I have never used Twitter or Instagram etc but I sent JK Rowling an email of support after I read her recent essay.
There are a lot of people supporting Rowling on Twitter but many people have been banned as you note. What has been sickening is those who encouraged not listening to Rowling about her domestic abuse then complaining about The Sun's shocking front page. Hypocrisy writ in 28 font.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #574 on: June 14, 2020, 10:08:35 AM »
Excellent piece on the issue of 'intersex'


https://differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/amp/