Trans rights: a perspective

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Leaked paper - apparently plans to reform Gender Recognition Act allowing legal change of gender without medical diagnosis is on hold/ abandoned by the current government.

"At the same time, the government was said to be preparing to set out new safeguards to protect female-only spaces – including refuges and public lavatories – to stop them being used by those with male anatomy."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-transgender-rights-reforms-theresa-may-diagnosis-a9565001.html

[Harrowby Hall]

I heard a brief discussion about it on the Andrew Marr programme. And possibly to stop the practice (presumably by medical practioners) of certifying "females" without an appropriate clinical investigation.

[wigginhall]

Looks like the trans phobes have won.   

[Nearly Sane]

Looks like the trans phobes have won.

You still just doing the lazy ad hominem stuff?

[wigginhall]

I have to admit, the combination of anti-trans feminists and the right wing, is very powerful. 

[Nearly Sane]

I have to admit, the combination of anti-trans feminists and the right wing, is very powerful.

Do you actually want to have a discussion? 

[wigginhall]

Do you actually want to have a discussion?

Too depressed now.  Anyway, tons of non-binary friends freaking out, they need support.

[Nearly Sane]

Too depressed now.  Anyway, tons of non-binary friends freaking out, they need support.

Yeah, and a wee bit of name calling will give them so much support.

[wigginhall]

Yeah, and a wee bit of name calling will give them so much support.

Well, you must be pleased.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, you must be pleased.

This says it better than me about how I feel

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1272121959489449990.html?fbclid=IwAR0tk80ILiL0nMj0mNu0ln1yBKf8peUpi0U4PgM-WZWTEOkNmt7QgcG0HWg

[wigginhall]

Non-binary people are fucking naive.  They could see that right wing regimes are cracking down on gender diversity, e.g., Hungary, Poland, US, but believed somehow that the UK was exempt.  Not so.

[Nearly Sane]

Non-binary people are fucking naive.  They could see that right wing regimes are cracking down on gender diversity, e.g., Hungary, Poland, US, but believed somehow that the UK was exempt.  Not so.

And of course you are then 'arguing' that women who speak up for their sex based rights, that you want to give away, are just right wing or dupes of the right wing

https://medium.com/@radicalgirlsss/radical-girlsss-statement-in-support-of-jk-rowling-f5e5a5ac9922?fbclid=IwAR0NSDTJqYfIvtbzi8TufjRit165C64KBskMGPkIBVFWm6U7178dMlqCGVY

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Looks like the trans phobes have won.

If women had the confidence that statistically they faced the same risk of harm from biological women as from biological men that would probably help your argument. If after 10 years, the Ireland experiment is working out fine for biological women, then you might have more of the evidence you need to support your argument that there is not a higher statistical risk of harm by allowing anyone to access single sex spaces or by allowing anyone to access single sex services by a process of self-declaration. 

https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/gender-recognition-reform-taking-place-under-the-radar-across-europe

Also, if you could demonstrate that biological men were able to discuss rather than talk over women, call people names or threaten violence, we would also not need single sex spaces for women to protect them from biological men.

All the trans extremists threatening women who disagree with them and telling them to suck their trans dick really does not inspire confidence in letting biological men enter women's single sex spaces. How would we tell the difference between the tolerant, vulnerable, non-violent trans woman who gives us permission to have a voice while sharing our space versus the aggressive misogynists trans women who tell us to "shut the fuck up"? 

I assume your trans friends will no be arguing that women are as aggressive as men, as that detracts from your argument that trans women need protecting from biological men? What is about some men and their obsession with their dicks?

[wigginhall]

Gabriella, not sure what you are arguing about.  If Boris supports a bathroom bill, trans women will disappear.  Some people are saying it's a classic Murdoch stitch-up, don't know. (Sunday Times story).

[Nearly Sane]

Gabriella, not sure what you are arguing about.  If Boris supports a bathroom bill, trans women will disappear.  Some people are saying it's a classic Murdoch stitch-up, don't know. (Sunday Times story).

Just erasing men's violence against women. Telling the little woman not to be concerned, and using a bit of guilt by association so to be consistent you are then supporting those people who told Rowling, a survivor of domestic violence, to suck on their 'female' dick.

[Robbie]

Very goodNS, and Gabriella. Not before time. Hats off to JKR.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella, not sure what you are arguing about.  If Boris supports a bathroom bill, trans women will disappear.  Some people are saying it's a classic Murdoch stitch-up, don't know. (Sunday Times story).

I assume I am not supposed to read that literally - trans women won't disappear. I don't buy into the argument that this focus on being "seen" trumps safety issues though. Can we focus on the actual harm before we get onto the "what ifs"?

I find it very strange that you are so dismissive of harm to women that you would ignore all the points I raised in my post about trans extremists threatening women with literal violence.  It would be like me ignoring Muslim extremists and never commenting on how they contribute to the problems. Either threats of violence are harmful or they are not. If threats of violence are not harmful then what is the problem if trans women face threats of violence from people?

[Spud]

If people were not allowed to change sex, that would solve the problem.

[Nearly Sane]

If people were not allowed to change sex, that would solve the problem.

It's a bit more complex than you seem to think sex and gender are not the same. There is a confusion in the law.

[Robbie]

I agree with you NS. Wigginhall I don't understand your point of view nor why you object to a proposed 'bathroom' bill. It's not unreasonable for women to want to female only places when they are doing personal things. That doesn't make them transphobic.

Spud I just saw your post before posting this. Nobody can change theirsex but they can change some aspects of their body and their appearance and live as the opposite gender. I've no objection to that, I wouldn't wish unhappiness on anyone and there's no doubt many have had miserable lives forced to live in a persona with which they are unhappy. However a man can never be a woman or vice versa. I don't want to be in a communal changing room at the swimming baths with a transwoman who has a willy and doubt many would. Another but more extreme example is a transwoman in a womens prison, a place where there is little safety or privacy anyway.

[Spud]

It's a bit more complex than you seem to think sex and gender are not the same. There is a confusion in the law.

It is complex when someone has parts characteristic of each sex, definitely. Which do they live as, and do they want to remove some bits and not others? The less tampering with the body, the better.

[Nearly Sane]

It is complex when someone has parts characteristic of each sex, definitely. Which do they live as, and do they want to remove some bits and not others? The less tampering with the body, the better.

Sorry, that's just more ignorance about what is being talked about, and a non sequitur.

Try reading this about the idea of 'intersex' and considering why you are way off beam

https://differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/amp/

[Nearly Sane]

 So much this


https://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

[Nearly Sane]

And also this

https://t.co/VqD1Z80jt7?amp=1

[Spud]

Try reading this about the idea of 'intersex' and considering why you are way off beam

Thanks for the link, I've read about this condition before. The reason I joined the conversation was because I'm sometimes served by a person at the chemist, where I do a regular pick-up for a family member, and I have no idea whether it's a he or a she. It would be quite good to know because then I would know how to talk, but I get the feeling he/she wants to be a mixture, and not treated as one or the other, which is confusing. Maybe I'll get the opportunity to ask someone about it.