Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132404 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #600 on: June 14, 2020, 09:20:14 PM »
Thanks for the link, I've read about this condition before. The reason I joined the conversation was because I'm sometimes served by a person at the chemist, where I do a regular pick-up for a family member, and I have no idea whether it's a he or a she. It would be quite good to know because then I would know how to talk, but I get the feeling he/she wants to be a mixture, and not treated as one or the other, which is confusing. Maybe I'll get the opportunity to ask someone about it.
Just talk to them as a person. Don't impose your sexist nonsense.

And you managed to miss that there are multiple differential  sexual developments which the article makes clear so perhaps you need to read more carefully

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #601 on: June 14, 2020, 09:37:43 PM »
Spud I saw a documentary about intersex which you might find informative. You'll see it has nothing to do with trans. There are two parts to the doc.

https://www.my5.tv/secret-intersex

Mermaids written an open letter to J K Rowling.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/mermaids-writes-open-letter-to-jk-rowling-following-her-recent-comments-on-trans-people/ar-BB15t1iQ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

This has annoyed me - that very young child may well change her/his mind in a couple of years. Many say they'd rather be a boy when they're small, why can't the adults around them just be casual instead of making a big deal about it? "Very nice dear, would you like a sandwich?".
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/15/trans-transgender-children-gender-family-project
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 10:14:14 AM by Robbie »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #602 on: June 15, 2020, 10:19:56 AM »
Hi Robbie

Thanks for your msn link to Mermaid's response to JK Rowling. I have linked to the Mermaid's website as well for the full letter:

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/dear-jk-rowling/

It's interesting how Mermaids and other trans lobbyists try to convey the idea to the less well-informed public that the Equality Act 2010's protection from discrimination for people who are changing gender allows trans women access to single-sex spaces. This allows them to try to claim that people are being discriminatory when they are not in order to create a toxic climate of phobia accusations. Mermaids say in their open letter to JK Rowling that “Trans women are already entitled to use the facilities that align with their gender identity, and those protections have been in place since the Equality Act 2010,”

However, the Equality Act 2010 and accompanying explanatory notes makes clear that sex is a protected characteristic and that sex is separate from gender reassignment and that it is lawful to prevent trans women from accessing women-only spaces if it can be justified.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

One of the many examples provided in the legislation is:

Gender reassignment: paragraph 28
Effect
739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.

Background
740.This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

Example
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Mermaids would be better off addressing the actual concerns expressed by women. These concerns are not usually about trans women sexually preying on girls or women but one concern was about male predators stating they are trans women in order to gain access to women-only spaces.

The other concerns I have read about - and many examples of this happening in real life are on this thread - were about erasing women's voices and experiences of being women by allowing trans women into single sex spaces and allowing trans women to define what women are and are not allowed to talk about in those spaces, with threats of social ostracism, emotional, financial and physical harm if women did not comply. Women, whose experiences are based on their biology, want to be able to have access to services that take into account their biology, without those spaces being invaded by biological men trying to tell them what being a woman should or should not mean.

Regardless of the complications in biology of whether you have a SRY or RSPO1 genes https://www.nature.com/news/2006/061009/full/061009-14.html that may cause XX chromosomal people to have external male genitalia or XY chromosomal people to have external female genitalia (with associated health complications eg. usually infertility or skin-thickening issues) the issue is the lived experiences of biology and associated social and cultural effects for the majority of girls and fertile women (which trans women have not experienced) e.g. being socialised from a young age to please others at the expense of themselves in order to have value which is not something little boys face to the same extent, being sexualised and objectified from a young age, being labelled negatively if you are too assertive or competitive while boys are praised for displaying assertiveness, puberty, privacy needs, menstruation issues, physical inferiority in comparison to men (such as height, weight, strength, stamina), worrying about the risk of sexual assault that affect freedom of movement and study and work choices, worrying about the loss in economic and social value and the physical, financial and social risks of pregnancy and childbirth from a young age for a significant portion of your life, body shape changes, changing vaginal secretions, hair removal etc

These experiences due to biology often result in women having negative outcomes in many areas, and a requirement for single sex services to try to redress the balance to lead to a fairer outcome.
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Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #603 on: June 15, 2020, 01:14:24 PM »
Thanks Gabriella. You're wasted, you could write some good articles for publication in the media, everything clear and balanced.
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #604 on: June 15, 2020, 01:20:15 PM »
No, the main thing that makes this story is Rowling. I have seen women on twitter receive this sort of abuse continually for years for saying woman is  an adult human female. That didn't appear on the news, it didn't mean the Sun would do an execrable front page giving voice to a domestic abuser. Rowling has been brave here.

JK Rowling probably received many tweets of support over her comments. But we don't hear about them in the news because they're boring and don't make a good story. If she had received nothing but support, the Tweet would have disappeared without trace and none of us would know about it unless we were following her.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #605 on: June 15, 2020, 01:23:46 PM »
Thanks Robbie  :)

Some info on the Girl Guides case, where 2 leaders were expelled for questioning the new transgender policy introduced by the Girl Guides

https://medium.com/helen-watts/inspired-by-the-guides-a-response-to-the-friend-a20cfb8b1011

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/expelled-from-girlguiding/
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #606 on: June 15, 2020, 02:21:27 PM »
JK Rowling probably received many tweets of support over her comments. But we don't hear about them in the news because they're boring and don't make a good story. If she had received nothing but support, the Tweet would have disappeared without trace and none of us would know about it unless we were following her.
Again women including some reasonably prominent women such as Suzanne Moore having been receiving this sort of abuse for a number of years now. And it's not just been on Twitter with a physical attacks on Maria McLachlan and Julie Bindel. The hypothetical of there just being supportive comments is therefore irrelevant, and the difference between the attention that this got, and the attention paid to the similar abuse received by others over the years is Rowling's prominence.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #607 on: June 15, 2020, 06:16:26 PM »
What is interesting in the idea that trans women are women and trans men are men is the intersection with sexual orientation.

If you are a man attracted to people of the same sex, and you find out that the person you are being sexual intimate with is a trans man, would you being transphobic if you were no longer attracted to that person because you thought trans men are not really men, or would you only be transphobic if you felt disgusted at the idea of having engaged in foreplay with a woman who identified as a man? Is sexual  attraction superficial so you are attracted only to a person's appearance and if they look like a man, then that should be sufficient and sex toys can make up for any lack of the relevant anatomy or a lack of relevant anatomy in good working order? 

I thought I would frame the question in terms of a man, because it is well-documented that some trans activists have argued that lesbians who do not want to be in a sexual relationship with a trans woman are being transphobic. I thought there might be a different perspective if it was framed in terms of men.

UK law requires people to disclose their gender history before sexual relations with others so that the other person has given informed consent to the sexual encounter, but this appears to not be the case in the US, where the trans person's right to privacy trumps the requirement to disclose for informed consent purposes. Not sure if this is in every US state.
 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #608 on: June 15, 2020, 06:33:55 PM »
There is some pressure out there for gay men to accept transmen but it seems lesser because many of the FtM trans seem in terms of sexuality to be lesbian, also because of the imbalance between men and women in terms of size, on average they would be less able to be threatening. Also there seems to be evidence that MtF trans maintain an offending rate closer to men.

Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #609 on: June 15, 2020, 07:27:14 PM »
It was so much easier when sex was the same as gender .. now the further confounding with sexuality is ridiculous!
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #610 on: June 15, 2020, 07:43:48 PM »
I was thinking more about whether you can be considered phobic for not being sexually interested once you know the biological sex of the person - if it is being argued that it's all in your head it seems to take away the idea of a biological attraction.

Once you start thinking about this you end up contemplating living in a society where objective evidence or non-trans people's perception become unimportant in certain situations. It seems to being argued by some people who want to stop criminalising sexual fraud regarding gender that if you as a heterosexual claim that you would not have wanted to have sexual relations with someone if you had known they were the same biological sex as you, you are being homophobic and this homophobia should not be upheld by the courts criminalising a trans woman who did not reveal her biological sex to you prior to sexual relations. I assume this works the same way for a homosexual man who objected to having sex with a trans man - they are being heterophobic.

Trying to get my head around the basis of sexual attraction that is being argued for. Is it being argued that you can think yourself into being attracted to someone regardless of their biological sex because attraction is based on outward appearance or is it being argued that biology is irrelevant and you should be attracted to the spirit of the person rather than the body that spirit is encased in? What happens if you don't believe in spirits and only believe in the biological evidence? Or is it being argued that you should be attracted to the abstract identity of the person - whoever they think they are is the reality and not what can be objectively determined, in which case are they arguing that there are no biological sexes?   

I might be wrong about the US right to privacy regarding transgender history. There is a legal website that claims that you do not need to disclose gender history to someone before marriage but I can't find any case law on it.

https://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-marriage-law-faq

A person’s transgender status is deeply personal and private, and it is constitutionally protected. In the U.S., there is no legal duty to disclose to a partner even if you are getting married. It is ultimately up to each transgender person to decide whether to tell your partner that you are transgender. This may not be true in other countries, such as England, where the 2004 Gender Recognition Act requires people to disclose their transgender status or risk having their marriages annulled.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #611 on: June 15, 2020, 07:51:29 PM »

Nearly Sane

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #613 on: June 16, 2020, 12:12:06 AM »
Given how hard it was for women to fight the patriarchy to gain the vote around 100 years ago or how hard it was for women to gain control of their reproductive rights, it seems very unrealistic for certain parts of the trans lobby to believe that they can silence women today from standing up for their right to discuss their lived biological experiences, which are very different from those of trans women.

I think that the most likely outcome of this lack of acceptance of women's experiences will be that trans women will feel less and less acceptance from women. Each side's reaction will provide the impetus for the next round of mutual rejection. This could lead to increased mental health issues.

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Nearly Sane

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Owlswing

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #615 on: June 19, 2020, 05:43:32 PM »
I have not posted on this thread because I worked with Trans in the strip-joints of Sydney, Australia's Kings Cross when I lived there '69-'75.

I never met, at that time, any female-to-male Trans but male-to-female were quite common, in fact, Les Girls club had no natal women strippers at all.

In that 6 year period, there was, to my knowledge, no antagonism between female and Trans strippers, they all used the same dressing rooms without problems.

Times change as do perspectives.

Now I would say that any Trans who still has male genitals has no right to expect to be accepted as a "Woman" - after surgery unless the 'woman' tells everyone they are Trans who is to know? 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 04:53:06 PM by Owlswing »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #617 on: June 22, 2020, 04:31:14 PM »

jeremyp

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Nearly Sane

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Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #621 on: July 02, 2020, 05:05:54 PM »
That is one excellent article NS & I will return to it.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #622 on: July 02, 2020, 08:43:40 PM »
Thank you for posting this, NS. I found it moved me greatly … but also made me very angry.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #624 on: July 05, 2020, 07:39:39 PM »
I am not clear if the publishers are saying she used the Erin Hunter Twitter account rather than her own Gillian Phillip Twitter account to support JK Rowling.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi