Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132550 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #700 on: August 28, 2020, 11:25:10 PM »


Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #702 on: September 01, 2020, 09:23:52 PM »

Owlswing

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #703 on: September 01, 2020, 11:33:04 PM »

Size, speed, and strength - not to do with sport

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2020/8/31/usa-rugbys-naima-reddick-let-trans-women-play?amp&__twitter_impression=true


What's not to do with sport? The lady has stated that she is not big, doesn't mention speed, and explains that she makes up in skill for any lack of strength! She is a fully qualified coach, has played right up to the highest level of the women's game. Even in the women's game, you do not last long if you can't take more than a few, sometimes very hard, knocks.

Might it just be that she knows what she is talking about? Might it just be that, unless you can match her in those areas, you do not know what you are talking about?

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #704 on: September 02, 2020, 03:13:32 AM »
What's not to do with sport? The lady has stated that she is not big, doesn't mention speed, and explains that she makes up in skill for any lack of strength! She is a fully qualified coach, has played right up to the highest level of the women's game. Even in the women's game, you do not last long if you can't take more than a few, sometimes very hard, knocks.

Might it just be that she knows what she is talking about? Might it just be that, unless you can match her in those areas, you do not know what you are talking about?
It might. However the science behind World Rugby's decision indicates that she is wrong.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #705 on: September 02, 2020, 11:10:00 AM »
What's not to do with sport? The lady has stated that she is not big, doesn't mention speed, and explains that she makes up in skill for any lack of strength! She is a fully qualified coach, has played right up to the highest level of the women's game. Even in the women's game, you do not last long if you can't take more than a few, sometimes very hard, knocks.

Might it just be that she knows what she is talking about? Might it just be that, unless you can match her in those areas, you do not know what you are talking about?
What she said was "I’m a solid force to be reckoned with in the domestic club game, but at 5’5” and roughly 185 lbs. in season, I’m significantly under the average weight and height for international players in my position. It’s never been a factor for me. I’ve taken on cisgender male athletes in training and female athletes much bigger than me without hesitation because I’m confident in my skill set. Being small didn’t stop me from getting 19 caps."

She has not said that she has beaten biologically male elite athletes in a competitive Rugby match - only that she has taken on male athletes in training without hesitation. That just tells us about her attitude, not her ability against male elite athletes. I'm smaller than average and I've taken on male kick boxers many times but I'm not living in some fantasy world where I claim I could have beaten them in a competition - during training they are pulling their punches and kicks and trying to help  me train and improve. In a competition they would be trying to win and I would get hurt. My 15 year old daughter is a club swimmer and swims competitively. She is below average height and would not stand a chance of winning a competition against a similarly trained male competitive swimmer as they would probably all be taller, stronger, and with a longer reach than her so would be faster than her - there might be an exceptionally short boy with similar muscle tone her age but it's very unlikely. But during training the girls and boys compete together in mixed team relay races. 

It's misogynistic to claim that the feelings of transwomen trump the danger to biological women of getting physically injured or the injustice of biological women competing for recognition against a whole category of people who have natural biological advantages over them.

I don't see how the risk of mental harm to biological men caused by not playing rugby can be more important than the risk of physical harm to physically weaker, more vulnerable people from being allowed to play -pretending physical injury is less important because biological women are the victims seems to go against everything feminism and equality stands for.   

I find this a very strange argument from the trans lobby. I'm all for allowing people their beliefs - whether it is about religion or whether it is people getting comfort from believing they are a particular gender that is different from their biological sex or people believing that their physical handicaps can be ignored. But biological advantages of being male are a reality. We can't pretend they do not exist any more than we pretend that the advantages of being able-bodied do not exist, hence disabled people are allowed to compete in their own distinct categories so that they are not unfairly disadvantaged against able-bodied people.

Some people get comfort from believing that death is not a biological fact and that there is a part of them that goes on living for eternity regardless of the biological/ physical evidence of death. But it would be unreasonable for society to ignore the biological facts and require us all to act as though we believed that death is something "assigned " by doctors and the dead person is actually alive. There are no doubt many people who strongly believe in eternal life and this belief forms part of their core identity and it is probably mentally distressing for them to have their belief in eternal life contradicted by biological facts. However, we don't allow them to ignore other people's rights to not be physically harmed because they feel really really distraught if someone challenges their belief that no one ever really dies.

 
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #706 on: September 02, 2020, 12:47:50 PM »
What she said was "I’m a solid force to be reckoned with in the domestic club game, but at 5’5” and roughly 185 lbs. in season, I’m significantly under the average weight and height for international players in my position. It’s never been a factor for me. I’ve taken on cisgender male athletes in training and female athletes much bigger than me without hesitation because I’m confident in my skill set. Being small didn’t stop me from getting 19 caps."

She has not said that she has beaten biologically male elite athletes in a competitive Rugby match - only that she has taken on male athletes in training without hesitation. That just tells us about her attitude, not her ability against male elite athletes. I'm smaller than average and I've taken on male kick boxers many times but I'm not living in some fantasy world where I claim I could have beaten them in a competition - during training they are pulling their punches and kicks and trying to help  me train and improve. In a competition they would be trying to win and I would get hurt. My 15 year old daughter is a club swimmer and swims competitively. She is below average height and would not stand a chance of winning a competition against a similarly trained male competitive swimmer as they would probably all be taller, stronger, and with a longer reach than her so would be faster than her - there might be an exceptionally short boy with similar muscle tone her age but it's very unlikely. But during training the girls and boys compete together in mixed team relay races. 

It's misogynistic to claim that the feelings of transwomen trump the danger to biological women of getting physically injured or the injustice of biological women competing for recognition against a whole category of people who have natural biological advantages over them.

I don't see how the risk of mental harm to biological men caused by not playing rugby can be more important than the risk of physical harm to physically weaker, more vulnerable people from being allowed to play -pretending physical injury is less important because biological women are the victims seems to go against everything feminism and equality stands for.   

I find this a very strange argument from the trans lobby. I'm all for allowing people their beliefs - whether it is about religion or whether it is people getting comfort from believing they are a particular gender that is different from their biological sex or people believing that their physical handicaps can be ignored. But biological advantages of being male are a reality. We can't pretend they do not exist any more than we pretend that the advantages of being able-bodied do not exist, hence disabled people are allowed to compete in their own distinct categories so that they are not unfairly disadvantaged against able-bodied people.

Some people get comfort from believing that death is not a biological fact and that there is a part of them that goes on living for eternity regardless of the biological/ physical evidence of death. But it would be unreasonable for society to ignore the biological facts and require us all to act as though we believed that death is something "assigned " by doctors and the dead person is actually alive. There are no doubt many people who strongly believe in eternal life and this belief forms part of their core identity and it is probably mentally distressing for them to have their belief in eternal life contradicted by biological facts. However, we don't allow them to ignore other people's rights to not be physically harmed because they feel really really distraught if someone challenges their belief that no one ever really dies.
Not sure what the relationship is between Trans and women Rugby players and the afterlife is?

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #707 on: September 02, 2020, 09:29:04 PM »
Size, speed, and strength - not to do with sport

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2020/8/31/usa-rugbys-naima-reddick-let-trans-women-play?amp&__twitter_impression=true
Reading the article, it doesn’t seem like she’s played a game of rugby against players with a strong male build. On the other hand we do have a report that says it would be more dangerous than normal for her to do so.
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #709 on: September 05, 2020, 02:57:11 PM »
Don't identify as black when you're biologically white:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54008495
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #710 on: September 07, 2020, 08:51:08 AM »
Not sure what the relationship is between Trans and women Rugby players and the afterlife is?
I was making the point that it does not surprise me when people who don't share my beliefs, the ones for which I am unable to provide testable evidence, decide they do not want to act as if my beliefs are true or factual.

As a theist, for example, I may interpret my experiences in a particular way that maximises the beneficial outcome of those subjective experiences for me but I do not assume that everyone else will interpret subjective experiences the same way or gain a similar beneficial outcome by adopting my interpretations. The example I used is that a belief in the eternal life of the soul can lead to people acting in a way that harms others as they do not believe that the people they harm really die as they believe their soul exists in some other place (usually more important than the material world we live in). Therefore society would be causing harm if they enacted laws based on eternal life in a more important supernatural abode being factually true rather than an untestable belief.

It works the same way for gender issues - a transgender individual should not assume that what benefits their lifestyle choices based on their subjective interpretations of their experiences is similarly beneficial for those who do not share their beliefs. The transgender athlete in the article dismisses the objective evidence for the physical limitations of the human body based on sex and the danger and inequality of mixed sex competitive sports, in favour of acting on unevidenced gender beliefs that could physically harm or penalise others.     
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #711 on: September 07, 2020, 09:37:41 AM »
I was making the point that it does not surprise me when people who don't share my beliefs, the ones for which I am unable to provide testable evidence, decide they do not want to act as if my beliefs are true or factual.

As a theist, for example, I may interpret my experiences in a particular way that maximises the beneficial outcome of those subjective experiences for me but I do not assume that everyone else will interpret subjective experiences the same way or gain a similar beneficial outcome by adopting my interpretations. The example I used is that a belief in the eternal life of the soul can lead to people acting in a way that harms others as they do not believe that the people they harm really die as they believe their soul exists in some other place (usually more important than the material world we live in). Therefore society would be causing harm if they enacted laws based on eternal life in a more important supernatural abode being factually true rather than an untestable belief.

It works the same way for gender issues - a transgender individual should not assume that what benefits their lifestyle choices based on their subjective interpretations of their experiences is similarly beneficial for those who do not share their beliefs. The transgender athlete in the article dismisses the objective evidence for the physical limitations of the human body based on sex and the danger and inequality of mixed sex competitive sports, in favour of acting on unevidenced gender beliefs that could physically harm or penalise others.   
Yes, I guess your suggestion would have currency on this forum and I have heard that some burnt heretics and witches to preserve the immortal soul.

However I still believe the parallel to be highly if not amusingly tenuous considering you summed up the transgender issue beautifully without mentioning the afterlife.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #712 on: September 07, 2020, 11:25:32 AM »
Yes, I guess your suggestion would have currency on this forum and I have heard that some burnt heretics and witches to preserve the immortal soul.

However I still believe the parallel to be highly if not amusingly tenuous considering you summed up the transgender issue beautifully without mentioning the afterlife.
I just find it an interesting comparison, being a theist. Some transgender people state that they were born into the wrong body - I just think the concept of a  "they" as a separate entity from the body lends itself to comparison with theists who talk about their souls or consciousness in a religious sense.  I don't know if the transgender person who says that thinks their brain was born into the wrong body or they mean their consciousness/ mind that is separate from body and brain is in the wrong body/ brain.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #713 on: September 07, 2020, 01:12:21 PM »
Apart from the reification of gender stereotypes in such a regressive way, of course they were going to call the child Zoomer


https://time.com/5885697/gender-creative-parenting/#click=https://t.co/Bf6yW1KHjP

Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #714 on: September 07, 2020, 02:41:38 PM »
Dreadful people.

I wonder how they will be remembered in history.

'Zoomer' indeed.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #715 on: September 07, 2020, 06:53:30 PM »
But you do realise that they have problems with English. They seem to think that the appropriate impersonal pronoun for a single child of undisclosed sex is plural.

But then, I was able to read very little of the article before it was obliterated by a message from its publisher.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #716 on: September 07, 2020, 07:45:23 PM »
I just find it an interesting comparison, being a theist. Some transgender people state that they were born into the wrong body - I just think the concept of a  "they" as a separate entity from the body lends itself to comparison with theists who talk about their souls or consciousness in a religious sense.  I don't know if the transgender person who says that thinks their brain was born into the wrong body or they mean their consciousness/ mind that is separate from body and brain is in the wrong body/ brain.
Then I apologise for trivialising and belittling your line of thought. My apologies.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #717 on: September 07, 2020, 08:00:22 PM »
Then I apologise for trivialising and belittling your line of thought. My apologies.
Kudos


Owlswing

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The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #721 on: September 13, 2020, 10:03:55 AM »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #722 on: September 15, 2020, 10:52:17 AM »
Following on from the banning of the I Love JK Rowling poster, there is a  major trending twitter hashtag yesterday and today #RIPJKRowling triggered by the release of her new book under the pseudonym Robert Galbraith which apparently features the possibility of a killer who is a man wearing a dress - note the book wasn't released till today so the vast majority of those commenting on the thread have not read the book. While there were some saying that it was her career they were talking about, there were many death and rape threats, just as she has been receiving since she first liked a tweet by Maya Forstater.

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #724 on: September 16, 2020, 09:43:05 AM »
And here we have the erasure of James Dreyfus because of his views.


https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-dreyfus-affair