Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132611 times)

Nearly Sane

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Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #726 on: September 18, 2020, 05:16:46 AM »
I support that woman for supporting JKR, what trans-activists are saying about her (Galbraith's) latest book is ridiculous.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #727 on: September 18, 2020, 11:20:03 AM »
If this story is true then it suggests that official attitudes are ... well ... arse over tit.

Police action ignores the hate campaign against Joanne Rowling for expressing a rational, science and experience based argument against extreme views held by some transgender individuals but investigates reports from these individuals about people who support Joanne Rowling.

Or have I got it wrong?
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Robbie

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #728 on: September 18, 2020, 04:25:03 PM »
No, I think your assessment is spot on HH.

I feel sorry for the police who have to 'police' this. A policeman's life is certainly not a happy one in many respects. What a waste of their time!
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Nearly Sane

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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #730 on: September 19, 2020, 09:10:28 AM »
Pat Robertson thinks people can be born in the wrong bodies. The thing about this prevalent idea in trans activism is that it is essentially as dualistic as the idea of a soul, and with precisely as much evidence


Actually, I don't think it is impossible that male brains and female brains are different and that you might occasionally get a female brain in a male body or vice versa. The evidence is lacking but it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of credibility.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #731 on: September 19, 2020, 10:04:33 AM »
Actually, I don't think it is impossible that male brains and female brains are different and that you might occasionally get a female brain in a male body or vice versa. The evidence is lacking but it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of credibility.
I don't understand that concept. Most of the studies I have seen show that in samples while there are some features in certain regions of the brain that are more common in one sex compared to the other, most people just have a mix of features. There is no evidence of any clear cut gender profile based on brain structure presumable because brains are plastic and develop based on their interaction with the environment. Hence, it seems unlikely that trans people have a gender identity that could be caused by having a brain linked to the sex that they are not.

And because people's brain structure, pathways and nerve connections etc cannot be characterised in a binary way when it comes to sex, one of the values society was trying to develop was that gender was artificial - so liking pink, soft, fluffy, pretty things or being caring and nurturing should not be pigeon-holed as gender characteristics that belong to the female sex whereas liking dirt and sport and being analytical and competitive should not be pigeon-holed as male characteristics. So we were trying to get away from the idea that people should be conditioned to act a certain way based on gender.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #732 on: September 19, 2020, 10:05:27 AM »
Actually, I don't think it is impossible that male brains and female brains are different and that you might occasionally get a female brain in a male body or vice versa. The evidence is lacking but it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of credibility.

The evidence being lacking makes my point correct.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #733 on: September 19, 2020, 11:07:41 AM »
I support that woman for supporting JKR, what trans-activists are saying about her (Galbraith's) latest book is ridiculous.

I belong to a few LGBT groups on FB and on one in particular there is a strong representation of transgender activists. Their postings appear to come from the same kind of mindset that dominates the supporters of Donald Trump (which is kind of ironic!). Anyway they appear to be "triggered" by any suggestion that nuance or compromise be applied to a discussion.

So a typical example of a description of JK Rowling reads "Homophobic, transphobic cunt". It is impossible to move the discussion on from these blunt insults. I don't actually understand it, these people are so angry, so unreasonable and so vicious that I fear that this issue is not going to be resolved in any sensible way that addresses the issues of both women and trans women, which I believe is completely achievable. Very depressing.

They now have a new hobby horse and think that the pseudonym that Rowling uses for her Strike novels is derived from the name of an infamous practitioner of gay conversion therapy, story here:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/16/jk-rowling-denies-unfounded-and-untrue-claims-that-robert-galbraith-pen-name-is-connected-to-conversion-therapist-13278545/



I was warned by another poster on here that entering this type of discussion was like going down the "rabbit hole". That poster was not wrong!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #734 on: September 19, 2020, 11:17:57 AM »
Have you been called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a transman yet, Trent?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #735 on: September 19, 2020, 11:21:54 AM »
Have you been called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a transman yet, Trent?

Not yet. I've been called a cisgender tourist which I didn't understand as an insult, so it didn't really offend me!
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #736 on: September 19, 2020, 11:32:56 AM »
It seems to me that the male/female brain/body mismatch experience is possibly acquired. There is evidence in other species of sensitive periods where, if appropriate stimulus is absent then particular behaviours do not develop - for instance, if kittens or puppies do not have human contact within a few weeks of birth (two to four in the case of kittens) then the animals cannot be tamed.

A human ability which is also exposure sensitive is spoken language.  A baby needs exposure to speech before about 18 - 20 months or it will never acquire language and significant exposure to any language up to about the age of six will result in the child acquiring such languages. (I have grandchildren who are fluent in English and Dutch - their parents' languages.) A problem many primary schools have is having to deal with children who come from linguistically impoverished home environments.

Sexuality in homo sapiens is not primarily concerned with reproduction but with maintaining bonds and is expressive rather than merely instinctive. The length of time humans spend in becoming mature adults is far longer than that of any other species and is due to the time needed for the brain to fully develop. Is it not possible that there are sensitive periods during which exposure to particular experience determines such factors as sexuality and self-perception?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #737 on: September 19, 2020, 11:34:33 AM »
Not yet. I've been called a cisgender tourist which I didn't understand as an insult, so it didn't really offend me!
Cisgender is a nonsense term, and as it is used is also a regressive patriarchal concept.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #738 on: September 19, 2020, 11:36:59 AM »
It seems to me that the male/female brain/body mismatch experience is possibly acquired. There is evidence in other species of sensitive periods where, if appropriate stimulus is absent then particular behaviours do not develop - for instance, if kittens or puppies do not have human contact within a few weeks of birth (two to four in the case of kittens) then the animals cannot be tamed.

A human ability which is also exposure sensitive is spoken language.  A baby needs exposure to speech before about 18 - 20 months or it will never acquire language and significant exposure to any language up to about the age of six will result in the child acquiring such languages. (I have grandchildren who are fluent in English and Dutch - their parents' languages.) A problem many primary schools have is having to deal with children who come from linguistically impoverished home environments.

Sexuality in homo sapiens is not primarily concerned with reproduction but with maintaining bonds and is expressive rather than merely instinctive. The length of time humans spend in becoming mature adults is far longer than that of any other species and is due to the time needed for the brain to fully develop. Is it not possible that there are sensitive periods during which exposure to particular experience determines such factors as sexuality and self-perception?
Indeed that seems to be what the evidence points to. The whole idea of being born in the wrong body is empty headed woo.

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #739 on: September 19, 2020, 03:25:52 PM »
The evidence being lacking makes my point correct.

How do you explain gender dysphoria then? Some people feel strongly enough about it that they will go through some pretty drastic medical treatment to make their bodies into some facsimile of the sex they'd rather be.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #740 on: September 19, 2020, 03:30:15 PM »
How do you explain gender dysphoria then? Some people feel strongly enough about it that they will go through some pretty drastic medical treatment to make their bodies into some facsimile of the sex they'd rather be.
So is an anorexic born in a slimmer mind?

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #741 on: September 19, 2020, 03:42:03 PM »
Have you been called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a transman yet, Trent?

What I find interesting about that particular issue is that you never hear trans men demanding to sleep with gay cis men or straight cis women. You never hear of trans women demanding to sleep with straight cis men. It's almost as though this assumption of a right to sleep with a person of your choosing (as opposed to it being a mutual decision) is a phenomenon associated with biological heterosexual males.

Also, something that struck me when surveying the RIP JK Rowling hashtag is that a lot of the messages are very similar to the messages that feminists are often subjected to by male rights activists.

I theorised above that gender dysphoria might be something to do with male and female brains, but these two phenomena suggest to me that trans women do retain some male traits.
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #742 on: September 19, 2020, 03:46:38 PM »
So is an anorexic born in a slimmer mind?
You are drawing a parallel between gender dysphoria and a psychological illness. Do you think, with therapy, trans women can be cured (if that is the right word). I don't think many trans women would agree with you on that point.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #743 on: September 19, 2020, 06:32:19 PM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #744 on: September 19, 2020, 09:58:56 PM »
You are drawing a parallel between gender dysphoria and a psychological illness. Do you think, with therapy, trans women can be cured (if that is the right word). I don't think many trans women would agree with you on that point.
Depression and anxiety are considered mental illnesses - so if the anxiety and depression is caused by feeling your psychological identity (gender) does not match your body then the depression and anxiety can be treated. I don't know that anyone cures depression and anxiety - but they can be managed and people can learn healthier coping mechanisms.

As we do not have a lot of detail of the mechanics of people forming psychological identities it would be difficult to change psychological identities - these are based on memories, experiences, relationships, and values, the beliefs people hold about themselves and their place in a group, society or the world, and it is unlikely that we will be able to teach people to choose their beliefs - I think we already decided that people can't choose their instincts, desires or beliefs - religious or otherwise. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #745 on: September 21, 2020, 07:49:07 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #746 on: September 22, 2020, 11:58:14 AM »
Good article from the great Joan Smith


https://unherd.com/2020/09/keir-starmers-women-problem/

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #747 on: September 22, 2020, 04:48:13 PM »
Good article from the great Joan Smith


https://unherd.com/2020/09/keir-starmers-women-problem/
Misogyny in the Labour party. Umm...hope that doesn't leave women heading towards having to vote for Tories to protect their rights.

I also read a blog describing an attempt by the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights (LCTR) to pressure Labour Party politicians to no platform Pragna Patel, co founder of Southall Black Sisters, from a meeting about violence against women and girls, because Patel once spoke about women’s rights at a Women's Place UK (WPUK) meeting. LCTR describe WPUK as a hate group - having looked at WPUK's website https://womansplaceuk.org/our-5-demands/ I can't see what's hateful about calling for the following demands - is there something I'm missing?

  • Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.
  • The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended
  • A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act (which allow for single sex services, or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.
  • Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.
  • Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

What's worrying is the lack of discussion on complex and contentious issues because of the worry of the Twitter Mob whose tactics seem to be seeking to undermine the democratic process. As pointed out by Joan Smith, Keir Starmer sitting on the fence about misogynistic comments from Labour ranks and supporters can be compared to Corbyn sitting on the fence about anti-Semitic comments from Labour members and supporters.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #748 on: September 22, 2020, 07:20:58 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54246686

Although I'm sure there is more detail than I am aware of attached to this, it sounds on the face of it like a sensible approach to me.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #749 on: September 23, 2020, 09:02:52 PM »