Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

Hmm....

https://www.straight.com/news/stuart-parker-resigns-as-leader-of-bc-ecosocialists-citing-a-slew-of-false-allegations-about

[Nearly Sane]

There has been much approval in some TRA circles about the article below based on an interview with Judith Butler. For the sake of balance, I am putting it up.

For the sake of honesty, I have to say it's badly thought out in the extreme.


https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times

[Nearly Sane]

My opinion of Mr Radcliffe goes down


https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/daniel-radcliffe-reportedly-open-harry-potter-return-jk-rowling-involved/amp/?fbclid=IwAR3AzoRvRCxthzcTpbW8Llm7QxF67q7CnxwsLZzIW6KjWJiiu8As1gDArMk&__twitter_impression=true

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There has been much approval in some TRA circles about the article below based on an interview with Judith Butler. For the sake of balance, I am putting it up.

For the sake of honesty, I have to say it's badly thought out in the extreme.


https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times

I would certainly agree that this part of what Judith Butler said is ill-thought out.

"The feminist who holds such a view presumes that the penis does define the person, and that anyone with a penis would identify as a woman for the purposes of entering such changing rooms and posing a threat to the women inside. It assumes that the penis is the threat, or that any person who has a penis who identifies as a woman is engaging in a base, deceitful, and harmful form of disguise. This is a rich fantasy, and one that comes from powerful fears, but it does not describe a social reality."

The argument is not that anyone with a penis would have the purpose of posing a threat to women or anyone with a penis is engaging in a base, deceitful and harmful form of disguise. That would be as nonsensical as claiming all men are rapists or a threat to women. The reason for single-sex spaces is presumably because it was recognised that some men could be a threat and allowing all men to enter would therefore create an unacceptable level of risk to women's safety.

The other issue is that women have a right to have their feelings of wanting privacy respected and to have their own space that caters for their biological differences from men. The trans extremists trying to take those rights away from women are using the very tactics of threatening rape or telling women to suck on their trans dicks that women want to protection from. Which reinforces why some trans women are a threat to women and why therefore single sex spaces need to exist in order to protect women from these trans women.

Women are often disregarded and told to sit down and shut by men and the world is often designed to suit the needs of men, so women need a space where men are excluded and women can have a voice, and where the the environment is set up for their biological needs, and not the biological needs of men. The last thing women need is for trans women to invade that space and then proceed to tell women to sit down and shut up - as these extremist trans women are doing with their online bullying of any woman who disagrees with their misogynistic, extremist trans dogma.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Nick Cohen on JK Rowling

https://thecritic.co.uk/braving-the-goblet-of-fire/

I remember speaking to a friend when I was at university - he was doing a PhD related to psychology and human behaviour and he said the same thing about a woman being a hole. He did not say it in a horrible way - I was questioning him about relationships and sex and the simplicity and control in masturbation so he was giving me a perspective by bringing ideas down to a very basic level in terms of sex. His actual values were very pro-relationship and respect for women but we were deconstructing the point of a relationship. Very interesting perspective on life when you look at yourself in terms of being a hole.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Some welcome and long overdue clarity from the Department of Education that teachers should not reinforce gender stereotypes in schools by suggesting that a child has been born in the wrong body if they are a girl who enjoys what is seen as traditionally masculine pursuits.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/25/government-issues-gender-identity-guidance-for-teachers-in-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/let-s-kick-gender-identity-out-of-school

[jeremyp]

The reason for single-sex spaces is presumably because it was recognised that some men could be a threat and allowing all men to enter would therefore create an unacceptable level of risk to women's safety.

I think it depends on the space in question. I think, with respect to changing rooms and toilets, the idea was to "preserve modesty" and that has simply become ingrained into our society. With spaces like rape counselling centres, I think it's more about protecting women from the stress that results from the trauma. To me it is totally understandable that if your mere presence triggers anxiety and stress in a vulnerable person, you should stay away.

The other issue is that women have a right to have their feelings of wanting privacy respected and to have their own space that caters for their biological differences from men. The trans extremists trying to take those rights away from women are using the very tactics of threatening rape or telling women to suck on their trans dicks that women want to protection from. Which reinforces why some trans women are a threat to women and why therefore single sex spaces need to exist in order to protect women from these trans women.

It's quite telling to me that these trans extremists use very similar tactics to MRAs. If you wanted to be accepted as a woman by other women, maybe stop behaving like a man.

[Udayana]

...
It's quite telling to me that these trans extremists use very similar tactics to MRAs. If you wanted to be accepted as a woman by other women, maybe stop behaving like a man.

Over the years I've known, maybe, half a dozen trans-women but none of them have ever exhibited any aggression at all, let alone the viciousness we have seen from "trans activists". My guess is that many of the extremists are not trans at all, but just misogynists that have taken up another weapon to attack women.
   

[jeremyp]

Over the years I've known, maybe, half a dozen trans-women but none of them have ever exhibited any aggression at all, let alone the viciousness we have seen from "trans activists".

Twitter amplifies the outspoken views. My guess is that none of the trans women you have met would take to Twitter to defend (e.g.) JK Rowling, and even if they did, theirs would not be the Tweets that get the attention.

My guess is that many of the extremists are not trans at all, but just misogynists that have taken up another weapon to attack women.
 

Unfortunately, there are still plenty of trans and non trans people (of both sexes) who think it is a good idea to defend their position by calling people who disagree with them on even fairly minor points bigots.

[Samuel]

Very interesting perspective on life when you look at yourself in terms of being a hole.

That IS interesting... reductive, obvisouly, but interesting.

I think the importance of 'the hole' where men find womens bodies desireable is unquestionable. But, weirdly, I'd say its also trivial. Sexual relationships are surely far more weighted towards a need for intimacy, closeness, connection, affirmation than simply the primal need to penetrate someone? Even rape, after all, is never really about 'the hole', its about power.

I don't really know where to go with this, but its got me thinking all sorts of things!

appologioes for the de-rail
 

[Nearly Sane]

This is good

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20502877.2020.1720429?src=recsys

[SteveH]

I've just been shat on from a great height on the Book of Faces for expressing sympathy with Jake Rowling's views on trannies. She was described as "transphobic": I said that not having suitably woke opinions didn't make her transphobic. Some silly woman said that not only women menstruated!

[Aruntraveller]

I've just been shat on from a great height on the Book of Faces for expressing sympathy with Jake Rowling's views on trannies. She was described as "transphobic": I said that not having suitably woke opinions didn't make her transphobic. Some silly woman said that not only women menstruated!

I've had similar experiences. The crowd that represent trans issues in some places on FB don't do nuance.

[jeremyp]

I've just been shat on from a great height on the Book of Faces for expressing sympathy with Jake Rowling's views on trannies. She was described as "transphobic": I said that not having suitably woke opinions didn't make her transphobic. Some silly woman said that not only women menstruated!

Some trans men menstruate (I don't know if they would consider themselves as women) and some women don't.

I think JK Rowling's comment on the specific usage of "people who menstruate" was a bit unfair in context because the article was about menstruation in the context of the coronavirus pandemic.

[Samuel]

This is good

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20502877.2020.1720429?src=recsys

Fascinating. Although the article looks at a specific context I think it just highlights the general situation - that society is simply not equipped to deal effectively with the legitimate recognition of trans people. When I refer to 'soceity' I mean all of us, even trans people themselves. None of us can figure it out.

There is undoubdtedly a lot of work to do on the non-trans side, starting with understanding more about what trans people want and need. However, it seems clear that the trans community themselves have no definitive answer to this question. Sadly, we appear to be stuck in a rut where any discussion is highjacked by ideology, prejudice and entrenched positions.

I can not accept that sex is a spectrum in any meaningful sense, or that the objective biological reality of it should give way to the subjective notion of gender, which is itself compromosied by the inadequacies of a culture still wrestling with highly prejudiced idea of what men and women are. These inadequacies, for me, are the root of all the apparent inconsistencies within the trans-rights movement. For example, if it is right to advocate for the acceptance of non-binary people, then why such aggresion in the claim to womanhood? or manhood?.

The only answer, in my eyes, is that we somehow come to a place where sex and gender are recognised equally, honestly and with compassion. As long as we play a game where one should trump the other, which I think is the mistake being made on both sides of the argument, it will never be resolved.

Of course, that is just one white-middleclasee-cis-man's opinion. And so, possibly, easily dismissed* as total horse shit.

*other reasons to dismiss it are also available

[Harrowby Hall]

Some trans men menstruate. 

Really?  Not according to Wikipedia:  Sex reassignment surgery (male to female)

Would you explain your statement, please?

[Udayana]

Really?  Not according to Wikipedia:  Sex reassignment surgery (male to female)

Would you explain your statement, please?

I expect Jeremy is referring to female to male trans ...

[Nearly Sane]

Ffs!


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310992210125520896.html

[Harrowby Hall]

I expect Jeremy is referring to female to male trans ...

You are correct. I misinterpreted JeremyP's post. It shows how confusing the rationale behids "trans" can be.

[Nearly Sane]

Fascinating. Although the article looks at a specific context I think it just highlights the general situation - that society is simply not equipped to deal effectively with the legitimate recognition of trans people. When I refer to 'soceity' I mean all of us, even trans people themselves. None of us can figure it out.

There is undoubdtedly a lot of work to do on the non-trans side, starting with understanding more about what trans people want and need. However, it seems clear that the trans community themselves have no definitive answer to this question. Sadly, we appear to be stuck in a rut where any discussion is highjacked by ideology, prejudice and entrenched positions.

I can not accept that sex is a spectrum in any meaningful sense, or that the objective biological reality of it should give way to the subjective notion of gender, which is itself compromosied by the inadequacies of a culture still wrestling with highly prejudiced idea of what men and women are. These inadequacies, for me, are the root of all the apparent inconsistencies within the trans-rights movement. For example, if it is right to advocate for the acceptance of non-binary people, then why such aggresion in the claim to womanhood? or manhood?.

The only answer, in my eyes, is that we somehow come to a place where sex and gender are recognised equally, honestly and with compassion. As long as we play a game where one should trump the other, which I think is the mistake being made on both sides of the argument, it will never be resolved.

Of course, that is just one white-middleclasee-cis-man's opinion. And so, possibly, easily dismissed* as total horse shit.

*other reasons to dismiss it are also available

Not dismissing it, but I think it falls into a massive oversimplification by talking about the 'trans side' and the 'non trans side'. First of all that seems to imply that all 'trans' are on the same side which is not the case. In particular many people who gone through full surgeries to be what used to be referred to as transsexuals are less likely to be supportive of the idea of self ID with no surgery. Indeed I think the debate is often confused not just about what might trans people want but what trans means.

Secondly there are many Trans Rights Activists, TRAs, who are not trans in any sense but buy into certain beliefs that reify gender.

Third there is implicit in the idea of 'non trans' and more compassion that anyone who is standing up for women's sex based rights is both lacking in compassion and is some sense anti-trans. If you want to complain about entrenched positions, I think you need to be more careful with your phrasing.

Also the 'non trans' side itself is a gallimauffry of contradictions, with left is gender critical feminists, and right wing supporters of the idea of gender stereotypes on the 'same side' because of not accepting that a 'Transwoman is a woman'. And that sort of contradiction is true on the 'trans side'.

I don't agree that sex and gender should be, or indeed can be, recognised as equally. One is a basic biological fact and is the basis for sexism throughout history. Gender has been used as a control to impose that sexism with the idea that women should behave in a certain way. I would much rather get rid of the odea of gender and just have people act and dress how they feel comfortable.

[jeremyp]

Really?  Not according to Wikipedia:  Sex reassignment surgery (male to female)

Would you explain your statement, please?

"Trans men" means females who present as men. Unless they've had surgery to remove their uterus or are past the menopause, they will menstruate.

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you, Jeremy, for that clarification.

[Nearly Sane]

This


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/30/feminists-anti-trans-idea-sex-gender-oppression?__twitter_impression=true

[Samuel]

Not dismissing it, but I think it falls into a massive oversimplification by talking about the 'trans side' and the 'non trans side'. First of all that seems to imply that all 'trans' are on the same side which is not the case. In particular many people who gone through full surgeries to be what used to be referred to as transsexuals are less likely to be supportive of the idea of self ID with no surgery. Indeed I think the debate is often confused not just about what might trans people want but what trans means.

Secondly there are many Trans Rights Activists, TRAs, who are not trans in any sense but buy into certain beliefs that reify gender.

Third there is implicit in the idea of 'non trans' and more compassion that anyone who is standing up for women's sex based rights is both lacking in compassion and is some sense anti-trans. If you want to complain about entrenched positions, I think you need to be more careful with your phrasing.

Also the 'non trans' side itself is a gallimauffry of contradictions, with left is gender critical feminists, and right wing supporters of the idea of gender stereotypes on the 'same side' because of not accepting that a 'Transwoman is a woman'. And that sort of contradiction is true on the 'trans side'.

I'll take that. The wording was perhaps clumsy and I never intended to deny the complexity across the whole issue. I think that point about compassion is a little unfair though. I was thinking about the way the public discourse around trans rights often becomes toxic. I wasn't suggesting that anyone is lacking compassion.

I don't agree that sex and gender should be, or indeed can be, recognised as equally. One is a basic biological fact and is the basis for sexism throughout history. Gender has been used as a control to impose that sexism with the idea that women should behave in a certain way. I would much rather get rid of the odea of gender and just have people act and dress how they feel comfortable.

Perhaps you're right, but I think you are being clumsy here. Biology is a fact but that fact is not a basis for sexism and prejudice... we invented that ourselves. Nor does a persons biology come anywhere close to being a satisfactory description of a sense of self, a sense of identity. There is no point in denying that sex is matter of reality, but neither is there any point in denying that gender, or something like it, is required to 'fill in the rest' if you like. Reducing identity to the ability to 'act and dress how you feel comfortable' is also an oversimplification.

[Nearly Sane]

The illiberal Libs

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1311622071609421825.html?fbclid=IwAR1udlkoWPNfpgHja0lGn423isy0gflaQUMXCxRs6UMs_jTRj_xbCe68zss