Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

Perhaps you're right, but I think you are being clumsy here. Biology is a fact but that fact is not a basis for sexism and prejudice... we invented that ourselves. Nor does a persons biology come anywhere close to being a satisfactory description of a sense of self, a sense of identity. There is no point in denying that sex is matter of reality, but neither is there any point in denying that gender, or something like it, is required to 'fill in the rest' if you like. Reducing identity to the ability to 'act and dress how you feel comfortable' is also an oversimplification.

Yes, if you read the point about sexism as being anything other than it being something we invented then I was being clumsy. The point is that sexism can only be properly fought if you understand that sex is real, and the mantra trotted out by some TRAs the 'Trans women are women' denies that.


As to your point about 'gender' surely that's just personality. The over simplification is being done by some TRAs in equating womanhood to a set of regressive patriarchal stereotypes.

[SteveH]

"Trans men" means females who present as men. Unless they've had surgery to remove their uterus or are past the menopause, they will menstruate.

But they're not actually men, are they? Even if they've had a total hysterectomy, they are still women genetically. There is no surgery which can change a fully-functioning woman into a fully-functioning man, or vice-versa: a "Trans man" will be effectively a man who's been castrated, and a "Trans woman" will be effectively a woman who's had a total hysterectomy. I've no objection to them identifying as a person of the opposite sex, but those are the realities.

[Nearly Sane]

But they're not actually men, are they? Even if they've had a total hysterectomy, they are still women genetically. There is no surgery which can change a fully-functioning woman into a fully-functioning man, or vice-versa: a "Trans man" will be effectively a man who's been castrated, and a "Trans woman" will be effectively a woman who's had a total hysterectomy. I've no objection to them identifying as a person of the opposite sex, but those are the realities.

Transmen and transwomen in the current discussion do not have to have had any surgery. And a transman in the current discussion is a female to male, whereas a transwoman is male to female.

[jeremyp]

But they're not actually men, are they? Even if they've had a total hysterectomy, they are still women genetically.

That's why I said "trans men".

I've no objection to them identifying as a person of the opposite sex,

I do. They are not of the opposite sex. I do, however, have no objection to them identifying as the opposite gender.

[Aruntraveller]

Gender definition OED:

The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.

Definition of sex (Male/Female):

Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Leaving this here because I keep getting confused (I know I'm easily confused), so it might be helpful to others. It ties in with JeremyP's point above which sounds like a reasonable position to take.

[Nearly Sane]

Gender definition OED:

The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.

Definition of sex (Male/Female):

Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Leaving this here because I keep getting confused (I know I'm easily confused), so it might be helpful to others. It ties in with JeremyP's point above which sounds like a reasonable position to take.

Gender though has been used to oppress women with its expectations of how they should behave. By people declaring that transwomen are women, they go back to the stereotypes that women like pink and wear dresses.
 

[Harrowby Hall]

Sex is dichotomous - it is a state in which one is exclusively male or female. Maleness is determined by the presence of  "Y" and "X" chromosomes. Females have two "X"  chromosomes. Sometimes an individual may be born with a "mosaic" genome, XXY or XYY. My understanding is that this generally results in an extreme presentation of the expected sex - for example XYY males tend to be taller than XY males. I am not aware of any research which demonstrates an effect on gender.

Gender is a continuum along which one moves between masculinity and femininity. It is a cultural not a biological phenonemon.

There appears - in some quarters - to use "gender" as euphemism for "sex", as though sex is an unpleasant word which is inappropriate in polite company. It is even present on official forms as a field to be completed after name, address and date of birth.

A couple of thoughts:

When describing individuals  "male" and "female" are both adjectives. I have noticed that official police reports treat the two words as nouns.

Biologically, the basic mammalian state is female. An ovum, left to its own devices, would develop into a female. Males are females  to which "amendments" are made during the individuals "manufacture" in the womb. Any genuine virgin birth would broduce a female infant not a male. Something funny happened in Nazareth, nine months before a confinement in a stable in Bethlehem ...

This is just an aside - not an invitation for a derail.

[Nearly Sane]

Another person being hounded for being 'anti trans'!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hounding-of-a-scottish-poet-by-trans-activists/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[Owlswing]

Another person being hounded for being 'anti-trans'!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hounding-of-a-scottish-poet-by-trans-activists/amp?__twitter_impression=true

   And, if such actions continue to achieve such results many more such vitriolic attacks are going to succeed until they become the norm.

   Goddess help us all - free speech is becoming a crime!






   

[Nearly Sane]

I am friends with a couple of the founders of LGB Alliance and this is a good summary of why they set it up.


https://unherd.com/2020/10/why-i-cant-trust-stonewall-any-more/

[Aruntraveller]

I am friends with a couple of the founders of LGB Alliance and this is a good summary of why they set it up.


https://unherd.com/2020/10/why-i-cant-trust-stonewall-any-more/

It might be a good summary of why they set it up, and I agree with much of this article, but I can't get on board with the LGB Alliance.

Two little words "Heritage" and "Foundation". I don't care how "useful" or "politically expedient" it is to get into bed with this organisation, Bev Jackson really should know better.

For context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

[Nearly Sane]

It might be a good summary of why they set it up, and I agree with much of this article, but I can't get on board with the LGB Alliance.

Two little words "Heritage" and "Foundation". I don't care how "useful" or "politically expedient" it is to get into bed with this organisation, Bev Jackson really should know better.

For context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

I know of Bev Jackson's twitter posts defending people that worked with the Heritage Foundation but know of no actual links between LGB Alliance and the Heritage Foundation.

[Aruntraveller]

Perhaps not. They just invite people to speak at their launch:

One of the speakers at LGB Alliance launch event was Gary Powell, a man who has allied with the Heritage Foundation against gay surrogacy rights and has written for Public Discourse, a division of The Witherspoon Institute which staunchly opposes gay marriage.

Source: Rational Wiki.

Also odd for an "LGB" organisation to promote this stance:

Co-founder Malcolm Clark, who apparently works on contract for the BBC, has stated that LGBT school clubs are "unnecessary and dangerous" and "encourage predators", Victim blaming children for the existence of predators because they organised supportive social clubs is a curious stance for a supposedly pro LGB organisation - it is usually heterosexual right wingers that assume orientation is inherently sexual (think of the children.)

Rational Wiki.

For me to start supporting this group because their views on Trans issues chime somewhat with mine, does not mean that I can simply ignore the rest of their, quite frankly, worrying and damaging stances.

[Nearly Sane]

Perhaps not. They just invite people to speak at their launch:
 Source: Rational Wiki.

Also odd for an "LGB" organisation to promote this stance:
 Rational Wiki.

For me to start supporting this group because their views on Trans issues chime somewhat with mine, does not mean that I can simply ignore the rest of their, quite frankly, worrying and damaging stances.

I don't trust rationalwiki on this subject see the following:


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism


As fir Malcolm's position it was a lot more nuanced than that - I know because I've known him for nearly 40 years. I think having Powell speak was a mistake.

[Aruntraveller]

Well from all I have read (and I read quite a lot when they first launched) there is too much wrong with their approach for me, like cosying up to right wing groups.

AS you rightly in my view, pulled up Steve as being homophobic for not supporting gay marriage originally, I wonder what you make of the confused stance taken by the LGB Alliance on the matter.

There are just too many areas where they have made, to be charitable, mistakes and I can't support them. Mind you I don't support Stonewall anymore, so maybe I'm just being curmudgeonly, I don't think so though.

[Nearly Sane]

Well from all I have read (and I read quite a lot when they first launched) there is too much wrong with their approach for me, like cosying up to right wing groups.

AS you rightly in my view, pulled up Steve as being homophobic for not supporting gay marriage originally, I wonder what you make of the confused stance taken by the LGB Alliance on the matter.

There are just too many areas where they have made, to be charitable, mistakes and I can't support them. Mind you I don't support Stonewall anymore, so maybe I'm just being curmudgeonly, I don't think so though.

I haven't seen any opposition to gay marriage from them. And I also read a lot about it and attended one of their launch events where I met a lot of people who I had marched with to support gay rights and women's rights over the last 40 years.

There is an ongoing issue with the strange bedfellows this issue has created but I hope you agree that given rationalwiki's TERF article it is not an honest source.

[Aruntraveller]

There is an ongoing issue with the strange bedfellows this issue has created but I hope you agree that given rationalwiki's TERF article it is not an honest source.

All the accusations against LGB Alliance are documented in other places besides RatWiki so that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the LGB Alliance reliance on right wing support. I can't go along with it, unfortunately.

[Nearly Sane]

All the accusations against LGB Alliance are documented in other places besides RatWiki so that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the LGB Alliance reliance on right wing support. I can't go along with it, unfortunately.

Then I think you have to show it from reliable sources.

[Nearly Sane]

All the accusations against LGB Alliance are documented in other places besides RatWiki so that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the LGB Alliance reliance on right wing support. I can't go along with it, unfortunately.

As an aside I have just watched the Voyager episode Nemesis, and part of it reminds me of trying to deal with issues like this on social media. It is too easy to see everyone on the other side of an issue as the worst extremists. I always have to try and review my own biases here, and your points because I respect you help me to do that. 

[Aruntraveller]

As an aside I have just watched the Voyager episode Nemesis, and part of it reminds me of trying to deal with issues like this on social media. It is too easy to see everyone on the other side of an issue as the worst extremists. I always have to try and review my own biases here, and your points because I respect you help me to do that.

Had to look that one up. Remember it, but not well as it focused on the (to me) least interesting character on Voyager (can't be doing with all that animal spirit bollocks), but I can see what you refer to.

I, try to review my biases too (I've recently allowed the Daily Mail to pollute my FB feed in an attempt to counteract FB's confirmation bias tendencies - that's not really working) but social media is a difficult beast for issues like this.

I know I should get out more and participate in real life but there are several things mitigating against that:

1. I'd have to go out and meet actual people
2. Since work finished I've relished the freedom from attending meetings so don't really want to go down that path
3. Currently of course, Covid.

Basically on gay politics I hate the splits. It weakens our collective strength. The LGB Alliance may well be none of the things I suspect it of, and support none of the positions I suspect it of supporting, but there just seem to be too many inconsistencies from one organisation. I'll read more when I feel up to it and see if perhaps my take on them is unduly harsh.

[Nearly Sane]

Had to look that one up. Remember it, but not well as it focused on the (to me) least interesting character on Voyager (can't be doing with all that animal spirit bollocks), but I can see what you refer to.

I, try to review my biases too (I've recently allowed the Daily Mail to pollute my FB feed in an attempt to counteract FB's confirmation bias tendencies - that's not really working) but social media is a difficult beast for issues like this.

I know I should get out more and participate in real life but there are several things mitigating against that:

1. I'd have to go out and meet actual people
2. Since work finished I've relished the freedom from attending meetings so don't really want to go down that path
3. Currently of course, Covid.

Basically on gay politics I hate the splits. It weakens our collective strength. The LGB Alliance may well be none of the things I suspect it of, and support none of the positions I suspect it of supporting, but there just seem to be too many inconsistencies from one organisation. I'll read more when I feel up to it and see if perhaps my take on them is unduly harsh.

Yep, Chakotay is tiresome but it's a good episode and there are no spirit animal bollocks in it.

I understand why you are worried by the split but given Stonewall's move to accept that homosexuality is transphobic don't see how it could be avoided.

That I know Malcolm and have been protesting with him for over 38 years does make me biased.

[Nearly Sane]

Ffs!

https://thecritic.co.uk/expelled-from-the-tory-party-conference/?fbclid=IwAR33PaX__V-jLvwcPJNLOo4Of9q8z-eGIUUWfB68LorDF2ktha99bQvqCXk

[Aruntraveller]

So I came across this person:

https://www.attitude.co.uk/article/mr-gay-englands-first-trans-finalist-chiyo-gomes-terfs-genuinely-want-to-destroy-the-trans-existence-1/23833/?

He is a trans man (that is FTM) but describes himself as a drag king. I kinda thought the idea of drag kings was to mirror drag queens in that you pretend to be the sex that you aren't. So if you are now saying you are a man, can you still claim to be a drag king  - this used to be called having your cake and eating it.

Anyway kind of a side issue as drag, however subversive it may once have been, has long since been subsumed into main stream culture. It has lost its ability to shock(something Paul O'Grady realised earlier than most drag queens) and it has either become panto or sanitised TV; or grossly crude and cruel club/pub/Ru Paul fodder acts.

So this drag act transman has entered into Mr Gay England, yet more irony, entering a competition that celebrates male physique in it's various forms. And yes I get that he is perhaps, subverting the format by appearing as a Trans man, but surely a much better thing to do would be to question what place an (in essence) beauty pageant that celebrates the male physique above all other considerations, still has in the LGBT community.

The other issue is that he may have had the surgery but his face still looks like a woman's face, and I know we've had effeminate men throughout history, but it's not the face of a Mr anything. I know that sounds like I'm locked into my own maleness. So be it.

I haven't thought this all through yet because I find too many contradictions inherent in the situation. My brain is starting to hurt.

[Nearly Sane]

So I came across this person:

https://www.attitude.co.uk/article/mr-gay-englands-first-trans-finalist-chiyo-gomes-terfs-genuinely-want-to-destroy-the-trans-existence-1/23833/?

He is a trans man (that is FTM) but describes himself as a drag king. I kinda thought the idea of drag kings was to mirror drag queens in that you pretend to be the sex that you aren't. So if you are now saying you are a man, can you still claim to be a drag king  - this used to be called having your cake and eating it.

Anyway kind of a side issue as drag, however subversive it may once have been, has long since been subsumed into main stream culture. It has lost its ability to shock(something Paul O'Grady realised earlier than most drag queens) and it has either become panto or sanitised TV; or grossly crude and cruel club/pub/Ru Paul fodder acts.

So this drag act transman has entered into Mr Gay England, yet more irony, entering a competition that celebrates male physique in it's various forms. And yes I get that he is perhaps, subverting the format by appearing as a Trans man, but surely a much better thing to do would be to question what place an (in essence) beauty pageant that celebrates the male physique above all other considerations, still has in the LGBT community.

The other issue is that he may have had the surgery but his face still looks like a woman's face, and I know we've had effeminate men throughout history, but it's not the face of a Mr anything. I know that sounds like I'm locked into my own maleness. So be it.

I haven't thought this all through yet because I find too many contradictions inherent in the situation. My brain is starting to hurt.

WAP as in Wet Ass Pussy?

[Aruntraveller]

WAP as in Wet Ass Pussy?

I assume that is what he refers to, which again seems to be wanting some special categorisation for one's self that is beyond the "usual" experience of males.