Trans rights: a perspective

[Nearly Sane]

Whatever the right treatment is for trans kids, it's important that they are seen by specialists.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

[jeremyp]

Whatever the right treatment is for trans kids, it's important that they are seen by specialists.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

The boy is waiting for gender reassignment treatment. I don’t know what that means exactly but if it’s surgery or hormone treatment, I think it’s a good thing he has to wait.

[Nearly Sane]

The boy is waiting for gender reassignment treatment. I don’t know what that means exactly but if it’s surgery or hormone treatment, I think it’s a good thing he has to wait.

He's not been seen yet for anyone to help in any way.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Selina Todd (has a share token so you don't need a subscription to read)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a5eb66d6-2a88-11eb-9d71-3a8cfebe9319?shareToken=325c46432179a736f184c8ebea4c4439

I had made a recent financial contribution to the Guardian and got a thank you from the Membership editor, Mark Rice-Oxley. But after Suzanne Moore's resignation I emailed him and the editor, Katharine Viner (katharine.viner@theguardian.com), to say I would not be contributing further. My email said:

Dear Mark and Katharine

Thanks for Mark’s email following my first financial contribution to the Guardian. I was hoping to be a regular contributor. However, after the recent lack of support by the editor, Katharine Viner, for Suzanne Moore I am shelving my plan to contribute further donations. I enjoy many of the Guardian articles and thanks to this email have recently discovered some of the excellent articles on mental health by Mark, which I forwarded to my daughter. Mark noted in an article from 2017 that the voice in your head is not who you are. Unfortunately, the bullying culture demonstrated by 338 Guardian staff against one individual journalist, Suzanne Moore, is a lot more than a voice in her head. Katharine’s lack of support for independent journalism or freedom of speech to question dogma or hold a differing opinion means that I  cannot in good conscience continue to financially support such a culture by continuing to make financial contributions to the Guardian.

Best regards

[Nearly Sane]

I had made a recent financial contribution to the Guardian and got a thank you from the Membership editor, Mark Rice-Oxley. But after Suzanne Moore's resignation I emailed him and the editor, Katharine Viner (katharine.viner@theguardian.com), to say I would not be contributing further. My email said:

Dear Mark and Katharine

Thanks for Mark’s email following my first financial contribution to the Guardian. I was hoping to be a regular contributor. However, after the recent lack of support by the editor, Katharine Viner, for Suzanne Moore I am shelving my plan to contribute further donations. I enjoy many of the Guardian articles and thanks to this email have recently discovered some of the excellent articles on mental health by Mark, which I forwarded to my daughter. Mark noted in an article from 2017 that the voice in your head is not who you are. Unfortunately, the bullying culture demonstrated by 338 Guardian staff against one individual journalist, Suzanne Moore, is a lot more than a voice in her head. Katharine’s lack of support for independent journalism or freedom of speech to question dogma or hold a differing opinion means that I  cannot in good conscience continue to financially support such a culture by continuing to make financial contributions to the Guardian.

Best regards

Don't know if you have seen Suzanne Moore's piece that was published today on why she left? Link below.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/?fbclid=IwAR1DhBAJC0lduE6yfOpxbtMxJyhJhSKM4i7dnu2AN0UiG7cA2rxG5QFC5Zo

[Aruntraveller]

It is a great shame that Suzanne Moore has left. She was one of the few writers I would always read in The Guardian, even though I didn't always agree with her.

Her and strangely enough Hadley Freeman who Moore mentions in this article.

The kind of polarisation that is occurring is no good for anyone.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Don't know if you have seen Suzanne Moore's piece that was published today on why she left? Link below.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/?fbclid=IwAR1DhBAJC0lduE6yfOpxbtMxJyhJhSKM4i7dnu2AN0UiG7cA2rxG5QFC5Zo

No I hadn't seen it. Thanks. Very interesting that she felt she did not feel like she had ever really fitted in at the Guardian. I agree with a lot of what she said.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's certainly interesting listening to all sides of this debate. Apparently opposing sides feel that Keir Starmer is not speaking up for them:

Labour members plead with Keir Starmer, Marsha de Cordova and the party to come out swinging for trans rights in the wake of alleged Tory attacks

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/19/keir-starmer-trans-rights-gender-recognition-act-labour-party-marsha-de-cordova/

Keir Starmer’s woman problem. The Labour leader has done nothing to tackle trans extremists' assault on sex-based rights

https://unherd.com/2020/09/keir-starmers-women-problem/?=refinnar

Labour’s official policy is apparently still promoting trans equality but defending powers in equality law that let organisations exclude trans women from all-female spaces in exceptional circumstances.

One definition of a woman is offered here:
https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2020/04/16/woman-transwoman-definition/

Some trans activists rejecting the patriarchy clearly expected unquestioning support from biological women who also reject the patriarchy. The response from some activists (who claim to be women)  for not getting that unquestioning support is to threaten women who disagree with them with rape. Wonder if there is any evidence of biological women threatening trans activists with rape? If there isn't evidence of that phenomena, that probably goes some way to explaining the need for single sex spaces rather than the alternative, which is to only exclude male criminals and allow all other men into female spaces. Male biology seems to lead to some unique problems for female biology.

What's troubling is having to pin hopes on Liz Truss/ the Tories on this issue depending on Keir Starmer's future statements on this issue. It might get to the point where I will have to vote Tory for the first time since I have been voting, despite all the Tory party's other failings, of which there are too many to list. 

[Nearly Sane]

The boxer ceiling. Gay men being accused of being transphobic for being same sex attracted


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN6bUPUugEzmNmC-nZTunsVPUtgAuMANMmoVSD1j5gmROqY5E53VSCukHKc8zSRHA?fbclid=IwAR3u-vUa6DZbcXsFkY6EHxBbeqQ0_BgxyeeBr70cEQ2VUBP1YXMQ8ph7yYo&key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3

[Aruntraveller]

Well that's one more thread I can't unsee.

What is it with all this hatred?

At the risk of being pilloried by some stray trans activist I'd just like to say that I will stick to sleeping with gay men thank you. In my case one gay man.

[jeremyp]

Well that's one more thread I can't unsee.

What is it with all this hatred?

At the risk of being pilloried by some stray trans activist I'd just like to say that I will stick to sleeping with gay men thank you. In my case one gay man.

I'd be sceptical if it was actual trans men making those tweets.

It's an argument I've seen before that it's only female attracted trans women or female attracted cis men who complain that women won't sleep with them, not trans men or cis women or gay people of either sex. The common thread is heterosexual men... actually, it's an argument I've made before. So I think those tweets you see that NS posted were probably posted by trans women activists trying to pretend the problem is one of attitudes towards trans people not the attitudes of heterosexual males.

The tactics of some trans rights activists seem to me to be very similar to those of MRAs.

[SteveH]

The trans thing, I can only put it down to my age and how things were for the most of my life, whilst I'll support equality of treatment for these people, I'd even support them in a protest march etc, but if I know there's a play or a stage show based on trans/gay anything I'll do my very best to avoid viewing these sorts of things a sort of they have every right to be as they are but I don't want to know, good luck with it but no thanks. 

ippy.

A perfectly reasonable position. I feel the same about gay men (bot not about lesbians).

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The trans thing, I can only put it down to my age and how things were for the most of my life, whilst I'll support equality of treatment for these people, I'd even support them in a protest march etc, but if I know there's a play or a stage show based on trans/gay anything I'll do my very best to avoid viewing these sorts of things a sort of they have every right to be as they are but I don't want to know, good luck with it but no thanks. 

ippy.

A perfectly reasonable position. I feel the same about gay men (bot not about lesbians).

I feel the same way about a lot of Muslims - especially listening to their speeches, sermons and talks. Some parts are interesting but a lot of it is so simplistic and one-sided, reverential and uncritically celebratory - it irritates me. I would prefer to spend my time focusing on people who have gone above and beyond - risked their life or sacrificed considerable amounts of their time or freedom for someone else - and celebrate that act / acts rather than uncritically celebrate a person, who is usually complicated with lots of flaws despite their heroic act/ acts.

With the trans issue, I find there are real heart-breaking problems with girls as young as 5 living on the streets or in poverty in developing countries facing child marriage, kidnap and rape/ murder due to their biological sex; or young girls not being able to attend school because they don't have sanitary products. It's depressingly unsurprising that in the developed world some biological males equate frivolous femininity with womanhood or think that they can define the word "woman" and have access to female single sex spaces when they have never had to contemplate the risk of any of that happening to them. It's like putting your hair in corn rows and wearing black face and then thinking that means you get to define what being black means because you have this undefinable feeling of affinity for hip hop culture in you.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It is a great shame that Suzanne Moore has left. She was one of the few writers I would always read in The Guardian, even though I didn't always agree with her.

Her and strangely enough Hadley Freeman who Moore mentions in this article.

The kind of polarisation that is occurring is no good for anyone.

I got a response to my email to the Guardian the next morning from Mark Rice-Oxley:

Thanks for your note - I'm deeply touched that you have found my work on mental health useful enough to share with your daughter. I hope this email finds you both well.


We are truly sorry that Suzanne Moore has decided to leave the Guardian - she has been a fantastic columnist for us over the past decade. But I feel I should explain one or two things about the situation here, to give you a fuller picture.

The Guardian believes very strongly that our pages should feature a plurality of viewpoints, even on very complex and controversial subjects, and in that spirit we have continued to publish a range of views on all sides of the gender and sex debate. The issue is a delicate one. There are very strong feelings on both sides, accusations that we are unfair both to women and to the trans community. These are sensibilities that we try to remain aware of as we go about our work. Rest assured that even after Suzanne’s departure, regular columns by the likes  of Nesrine Malik, Hadley Freeman and Gaby Hinsliff will ensure that women's rights remain strongly represented.

Much has been made of the petition that a large number of Guardian employees signed in the wake of one of Suzanne’s columns.   We expect from all our staff a culture of respect and tolerance for those with opposing views, and we have made this point again this year in the most unambiguous fashion.  When necessary, we also remind them that those standards apply on social media, too. Hundreds may have signed this petition. A much larger number did not.


Please rest assured that the decisions by individual writers will not deflect us in any way from our core values and a robust commitment to plurality - one of the Guardian’s most important principles. We will never become a mouthpiece for one lobby or another, and resist any cliques that try to push us in that direction.

I hope this goes some way to assuaging your concerns and convincing you that the Guardian remains a fair, open-minded organisation worthy of your support.


All the best

[Aruntraveller]

A perfectly reasonable position. I feel the same about gay men (bot not about lesbians).

It's always good to see that a bit of lesbian action does it for some heterosexual men 

[Robbie]

It's always good to see that a bit of lesbian action does it for some heterosexual men 

Yes. I've heard that said & remember one (revolting) man saying he wouldn't like it if his wife was involved. Ha! Thing is it would be like watching porn = quite unrealistic. Two lesbian women or two paid women doing the deed in front of a male audience would be performing, not showing genuine affection or passion.

We can't assume that is why all men aren't bothered by lesbian women though, it can be because it doesn't affect them. They can't imagine themselves in that position whereas they could if it was two men & not like it. Women generallyhave very different reactions than men to sex. As a straight woman if I knew two women were lovers the details wouldn't enter my head & I have no wish to watch anyone have sex. It's private.

(When I was a kid I admit used to wonder what people did. I wouldn't have wanted to see but read. Idevoured Well of Loneliness & learned nothing.)

[Aruntraveller]

We can't assume that is why all men aren't bothered by lesbian women though, it can be because it doesn't affect them. They can't imagine themselves in that position whereas they could if it was two men & not like it.

I wasn't making that assumption. I just find it odd that some people react that way.

I, as a gay man, can watch dramas about gay men, gay women, heterosexuals, transexuals, whatever without feeling the need to say "Oh I don't watch that because it somehow challenges my view of myself." It's just odd. Of all the criteria to apply it seems, somehow the behaviour more fitting of a teenager than an adult. Surely the first question should be is the drama good, worthwhile, revealing something you hadn't thought of or realised.

[Robbie]

I ddn't think for one moment you were assuming that Trent. There's nowt as strange as folk.

"Surely the first question should be is the drama good, worthwhile, revealing something you hadn't thought of or realised."

Perhaps that's what scares some  .

[Nearly Sane]

I wasn't making that assumption. I just find it odd that some people react that way.

I, as a gay man, can watch dramas about gay men, gay women, heterosexuals, transexuals, whatever without feeling the need to say "Oh I don't watch that because it somehow challenges my view of myself." It's just odd. Of all the criteria to apply it seems, somehow the behaviour more fitting of a teenager than an adult. Surely the first question should be is the drama good, worthwhile, revealing something you hadn't thought of or realised.

I agree. It'completely baffling to me why someone would have a problem with gay people, or trans people in a drama. 

[Nearly Sane]

Great thread from Malcolm Clark on the LGB Alliance

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1333248030259044352.html

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Noticed from your Malcolm Clark link that there is a court case due to be heard in Scotland brought by a group pf women challenging the right of the Scottish government to erode women's sex-based rights, with a link to fund the legal fees for this case, so I donated.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/stop-scottish-government-redefining-woman/

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I ddn't think for one moment you were assuming that Trent. There's nowt as strange as folk.

"Surely the first question should be is the drama good, worthwhile, revealing something you hadn't thought of or realised."

Perhaps that's what scares some  .

That's what I thought they meant when they said they weren't interested in gay/ trans plays - as opposed to that they did not want to view any explicit sex scenes. Lesbian sex scenes would make me feel queasy so I guess I can understand some men's views of male gay sex scenes from a male heterosexual perspective. The limited sex scenes in Boys Don't Cry made me uncomfortable. And obviously sexual violence of any kind on film is extremely uncomfortable viewing but presumably that's the point.

I thought 3 Generations was an interesting film about young trans issues - where a teenage female wants to transition to a boy -  though it did not get great reviews. No sex scenes.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/3_generations/reviews

[Nearly Sane]

Ffs!


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8997405/amp/Breastfeeding-charity-sparks-outrage-allowing-men-identify-female-attend-meetings.html?__twitter_impression=true

[Nearly Sane]

Decision today on Keira Bell case

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/12/01/high-court-to-rule-on-case-over-experimental-puberty-blockers-for-children/

[Harrowby Hall]

It would appear that the legal challenge has been successful.

I have been looking at photos of Keira Bell. Her facial bone structure now appears rather masculine. If i were not aware that she is a woman in her twenties I would have guessed from her current appearance that was a boy in his mid to late teens. Photos which show her as a child show someone unmistakeably a girl.