Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 131792 times)

Gordon

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1200 on: August 04, 2021, 09:08:16 PM »
Moderator:

Please note that a number of posts from the 'Olympics' thread (Sports, Hobbies and Interests Board) that were focused more on the 'trans' issues surrounding participation in certain sporting events, have been merged into this thread

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1201 on: August 04, 2021, 09:24:23 PM »
If by that you mean that there is a binary concept, such that ever person is either a man or a women, then even in the purest biological context context that isn't true as there are all sorts of examples of intersex condition which involve individuals exhibiting biological characteristics of both men and women.

As Jeremy P pointed out previously the most 'correct' biological definition of male vs female is about production of gamete of particular size - yet even here there are examples of individuals who produce both male and female gametes and others who produce neither.

So even in the context of pure biological sex, man vs woman isn't a pure binary concept.

Of course in terms of trans-gender people we are talking about gender rather than biological sex (the key is in the name) and in that context there is a much wider spectrum of individuals who in gender terms (biological, psychological and cultural) identify to a greater or lesser sense with characteristics that we typically ascribe as masculine or feminine.
And to reiterate the question earlier do you think that those you refer to as 'trans women' are women? If so, what is your definition of woman?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 09:31:55 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1202 on: August 04, 2021, 09:31:18 PM »
If by that you mean that there is a binary concept, such that ever person is either a man or a women, then even in the purest biological context context that isn't true as there are all sorts of examples of intersex condition which involve individuals exhibiting biological characteristics of both men and women.

As Jeremy P pointed out previously the most 'correct' biological definition of male vs female is about production of gamete of particular size - yet even here there are examples of individuals who produce both male and female gametes and others who produce neither.

So even in the context of pure biological sex, man vs woman isn't a pure binary concept.

Of course in terms of trans-gender people we are talking about gender rather than biological sex (the key is in the name) and in that context there is a much wider spectrum of individuals who in gender terms (biological, psychological and cultural) identify to a greater or lesser sense with characteristics that we typically ascribe as masculine or feminine.
Oh, and 'intersex' is a wildly inaccurate and for those who have DSDs quite an offensive term.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1203 on: August 05, 2021, 11:35:38 AM »
If by that you mean that there is a binary concept, such that ever person is either a man or a women, then even in the purest biological context context that isn't true as there are all sorts of examples of intersex condition which involve individuals exhibiting biological characteristics of both men and women.

As Jeremy P pointed out previously the most 'correct' biological definition of male vs female is about production of gamete of particular size - yet even here there are examples of individuals who produce both male and female gametes and others who produce neither.

So even in the context of pure biological sex, man vs woman isn't a pure binary concept.

Of course in terms of trans-gender people we are talking about gender rather than biological sex (the key is in the name) and in that context there is a much wider spectrum of individuals who in gender terms (biological, psychological and cultural) identify to a greater or lesser sense with characteristics that we typically ascribe as masculine or feminine.
Your last para is the one that seems to have no answers and generates only confusion, which is why competitive sports should not be segregated based on gender, unless you can explain how gender plays a role in unfairly disadvantaging people in competitive sport.

What are the characteristics that we typically ascribe as masculine?

What are characteristics that we typically ascribe as feminine?

Who decides which category - masculine or feminine - that a particular characteristic falls into in any given year? The IOC?

Does it not make more sense for the IOC to just stick to looking at the stats supported by science as to what confers unfair advantages in sport, rather than worrying themselves about subjective abstract concepts, which people can't agree on because there is no supporting objective evidence? So Hubbard regarding herself as a woman is irrelevant for the purposes of competitive sport as there is no objective evidence for the gender category "woman".
 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ekim

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1204 on: August 05, 2021, 04:01:24 PM »
Perhaps, like the para-olympics there could be a trans-olympics.

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1205 on: August 09, 2021, 07:41:33 PM »
Yes I have heard of the spirit of the sport - which is of course the ethos set by the governing body of the sport.

The spirit of the sport, as far as the IOC is concerned, is that trans women are woman and can compete in women's sports provided they meet certain criteria - which she did.

I am struggling to see why her race nor her financial background is relevant - since when do we ban people from competing in a sport because they are white or rich. That would hardly be in the 'spirit of the sport' would it.

You don't like the IOC's position - take it up with the IOC - don't demonise someone who has complied with both the spirit of the sport (as set out by the IOC) and the specific rules for participation.

I'm interested to know PD: do you think it's fair to allow male bodied athletes to compete in sports competitions previously reserved for female bodied athletes, especially in cases where male physiology confers a big advantage?
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1206 on: August 09, 2021, 07:57:51 PM »
Perhaps, like the para-olympics there could be a trans-olympics.

It wouldn't work. Trans women (at least the activists) want people to treat them exactly as if they are women. Having a separate category for them in sport would be admitting that what they want is impossible.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1207 on: August 10, 2021, 02:52:39 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1208 on: August 11, 2021, 07:38:54 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1209 on: August 11, 2021, 09:11:36 PM »

Nearly Sane

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:23:12 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1211 on: August 12, 2021, 06:50:48 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1212 on: August 12, 2021, 08:00:46 PM »
And BBC witb dangerous gender woo about children



https://www.facebook.com/cbeebies/posts/4060111030690835

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1213 on: August 13, 2021, 11:18:32 AM »
More coverage of the Scottish Govt's dangerous idiocy


.https://archive.is/Fusim

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1216 on: August 25, 2021, 10:05:52 PM »
Simon Callow talking sense:

https://archive.is/nYVfA
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1217 on: August 29, 2021, 04:20:42 PM »
It's Raining Them.

https://attitude.co.uk/article/its-raining-men-becomes-its-raining-them-in-celebratory-new-cover-version/25649/?


That I am upset that this disco song has been debased even more than having Geri Haliwell cover it, is beside the point.

Really, we have to put up with this crap - It's raining them ?

The only thing that could make this worse is Michael Gove dancing to it. Wait................. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1218 on: August 29, 2021, 06:28:45 PM »
Very fond of this record and used it as the producer of a version of The Tempest as the theme.

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1219 on: August 30, 2021, 01:10:05 PM »
It's Raining Them.

https://attitude.co.uk/article/its-raining-men-becomes-its-raining-them-in-celebratory-new-cover-version/25649/?


That I am upset that this disco song has been debased even more than having Geri Haliwell cover it, is beside the point.

Really, we have to put up with this crap - It's raining them ?

The only thing that could make this worse is Michael Gove dancing to it. Wait................. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

It doesn't mean the original song has gone away.

My biggest problem with this is that, as a small boy, I saw a certain film on TV which left quite an impression and thus "it's raining them" makes me think of a rain of giant ants.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1220 on: August 31, 2021, 12:31:35 PM »
Standing protesting for 3 and a half hours is harder than it used to be.

#IStandWithMarionMillar
#WomenWontWheesht


https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19547978.scots-feminist-hate-crime-case-continued-consider-human-rights-issues/

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1221 on: August 31, 2021, 03:15:01 PM »
The wrong type of gay for Pride


https://archive.is/DFLbO

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1223 on: September 01, 2021, 01:12:25 PM »
Scottish census to allow self ID on sex question - I think this will be taken to the courts


https://archive.vn/o9SER

Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1224 on: September 01, 2021, 06:13:48 PM »
Standing protesting for 3 and a half hours is harder than it used to be.

#IStandWithMarionMillar
#WomenWontWheesht


https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19547978.scots-feminist-hate-crime-case-continued-consider-human-rights-issues/

NS, I appreciate you may not know this, or because of the case being on-going you cannot comment, but in some reports she is accused of both homophobic & transphobic tweets. I've looked at her Twitter feed and can see no evidence of either (they may have been removed?) Do you know what the nature of these supposed tweets are?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.