Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132365 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1650 on: January 24, 2023, 12:02:13 PM »
Presumably somebody at Meta knows what it means.

I think I covered all the possible interpretations and all of them are bonkers in one way or another.
Given that non binary makes no sense, it seems to me impossible to know what it means.

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1652 on: January 24, 2023, 02:46:20 PM »
Was, is, and will remain a man


https://news.stv.tv/west-central/transgender-woman-isla-bryson-guilty-of-raping-two-women-in-clydebank-while-a-man
From the defence:


'If you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges'


Ffs!

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/glasgow-clydebank-high-court-transgender-b1054979.html

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1653 on: January 24, 2023, 03:51:16 PM »
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 03:57:50 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1654 on: January 24, 2023, 05:09:58 PM »
Thread on the case with link to the petition to update the Equality Act

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1617907179822153731.html
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 05:16:13 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1655 on: January 25, 2023, 02:27:53 PM »
Women athletes speaking out against World Athletics nonsensical policy.

https://archive.vn/r6l8k
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 02:38:11 PM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1656 on: January 25, 2023, 02:47:31 PM »
Given that non binary makes no sense, it seems to me impossible to know what it means.

Why does it make no sense? It's seems fairly obvious that somebody who is non binary rejects being pigeon holed into one of the two (binary, see) genders. What doesn't make sense is categorising them together with trans gender people.  Non binary people reject traditional gender. Trans women embrace it.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1657 on: January 25, 2023, 03:40:58 PM »
Why does it make no sense? It's seems fairly obvious that somebody who is non binary rejects being pigeon holed into one of the two (binary, see) genders. What doesn't make sense is categorising them together with trans gender people.  Non binary people reject traditional gender. Trans women embrace it.
Because gender isn't defined beyond stereotypes and I have no idea what a binary person would be.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 04:20:29 PM by Nearly Sane »

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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1659 on: January 26, 2023, 07:48:43 AM »
Because gender isn't defined beyond stereotypes and I have no idea what a binary person would be.
There are two stereotypical genders. Hence binary. In this context a binary person would  be one who identifies as one of the two stereotypical genders.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1660 on: January 26, 2023, 09:14:17 AM »
There are two stereotypical genders. Hence binary. In this context a binary person would  be one who identifies as one of the two stereotypical genders.
And what of you don't believe in the stereotypes? Gender is the equivalent of a soul. It's fine for the religious but not something to be legislated on as if it were real.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1661 on: January 26, 2023, 09:16:11 AM »
Article by Joan Smith on the mess on reporting of the tecently convicted male Clydebank rapist.


https://unherd.com/thepost/why-cant-the-media-get-the-clydebank-rapists-pronouns-right/

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1662 on: January 26, 2023, 12:58:18 PM »
At least some good news as regards the likely prison that Adam Gordon will be held in - though stiil in Cornton Vale at moment


https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-woman-convicted-of-rape-will-not-be-held-in-all-female-prison-sturgeon-says-12795942
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 01:26:52 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1663 on: January 26, 2023, 01:54:26 PM »
“It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.”


https://archive.vn/b5iKK

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1664 on: January 26, 2023, 02:10:14 PM »
There are two stereotypical genders. Hence binary. In this context a binary person would  be one who identifies as one of the two stereotypical genders.
No one ever asked us before if we identify with a gender so I wouldn't know what to say. If asked I would say that my gender is a biological woman. Gender seems to be like having a nationality or a passport - if you fill some forms and become a dual national you can fly out of the country on one passport, enter the country you are a dual national of on a different passport, when you want local hotel rates rather than pay international rates you produce the passport of the country you are in.

Not sure how these stereotypical genders were decided and which particular stereotype is the defining one that tells you which gender you should choose - might have to identify as different genders at different times of the day E.g. when you need the toilet and one seems to have a shorter queue you can be relevant gender for the less busy toilet, when you're in a sinking boat where traditionally women and children are rescued first you can pick your appropriate gender e.g a biological woman who is feeling chivalrous and is a strong swimmer might have to call herself a man during the rescue.

Kier Starmer seems to be unsure what makes a person a man or a woman - he's not the only one. It's confusing - if you find wearing trousers more comfortable and don't wear make-up and enjoy driving should you identify as a man during those activities and if you like cleaning the kitchen and getting the laundry done do you identify as a woman when ticking those chores off your list regardless of your biological sex? 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1665 on: January 26, 2023, 02:12:47 PM »
At least some good news as regards the likely prison that Adam Gordon will be held in - though stiil in Cornton Vale at moment


https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-woman-convicted-of-rape-will-not-be-held-in-all-female-prison-sturgeon-says-12795942

Good news.

Also, the government seem to have changed their transgender prisoner policy: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework

As a result of the new policy, transgender women who are in future sentenced to custody and

have male genitalia
OR

who have been convicted of sexual offences
will not serve their sentences in the general women’s estate unless there are exceptional circumstances.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1666 on: January 26, 2023, 02:20:04 PM »
Good news.

Also, the government seem to have changed their transgender prisoner policy: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework

As a result of the new policy, transgender women who are in future sentenced to custody and

have male genitalia
OR

who have been convicted of sexual offences
will not serve their sentences in the general women’s estate unless there are exceptional circumstances.
That change in policy does not apply to Scotland.  And it doesn't go far enough imo.

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1667 on: January 26, 2023, 02:24:24 PM »
And what of you don't believe in the stereotypes?
What would it mean to believe in gender stereotypes? I mean, they certainly exist.

Quote
Gender is the equivalent of a soul. It's fine for the religious but not something to be legislated on as if it were real.

I think that depends on the context. If a man decides he wants to be treated as a woman and to "live as a woman", that's up to him and his right to do so should be protected up to a point - that point being when it brings him in to conflict with women's sex based rights.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1668 on: January 26, 2023, 02:29:40 PM »
What would it mean to believe in gender stereotypes? I mean, they certainly exist.

I think that depends on the context. If a man decides he wants to be treated as a woman and to "live as a woman", that's up to him and his right to do so should be protected up to a point - that point being when it brings him in to conflict with women's sex based rights.
Why legislate for it? What does being 'treated like a woman' of 'living like a woman' mean?

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1669 on: January 26, 2023, 02:36:17 PM »
No one ever asked us before if we identify with a gender so I wouldn't know what to say. If asked I would say that my gender is a biological woman. Gender seems to be like having a nationality or a passport - if you fill some forms and become a dual national you can fly out of the country on one passport, enter the country you are a dual national of on a different passport, when you want local hotel rates rather than pay international rates you produce the passport of the country you are in.

Not sure how these stereotypical genders were decided and which particular stereotype is the defining one that tells you which gender you should choose - might have to identify as different genders at different times of the day E.g. when you need the toilet and one seems to have a shorter queue you can be relevant gender for the less busy toilet, when you're in a sinking boat where traditionally women and children are rescued first you can pick your appropriate gender e.g a biological woman who is feeling chivalrous and is a strong swimmer might have to call herself a man during the rescue.

Kier Starmer seems to be unsure what makes a person a man or a woman - he's not the only one. It's confusing - if you find wearing trousers more comfortable and don't wear make-up and enjoy driving should you identify as a man during those activities and if you like cleaning the kitchen and getting the laundry done do you identify as a woman when ticking those chores off your list regardless of your biological sex?

It's my opinion that gender is one of those things like race that turns out to be incoherent when you examine it closely. There is a biological core to it but we accrete stuff on top that's really just societal attitudes.

The definition of woman used to be adult human female, but a lot of people are saying "it's whoever identifies as a woman". Well, that's circular and what does it mean to identify as a woman? Then there are these rules we have in place about legally changing your gender. You have to live as a woman for a period of time. What does it mean to live as a woman? What do I have to do differently if I want to live as a woman? Do I have to wear dresses and women's shoes? Does it mean I have to stop pretending I understand the offside rule? I'm already rubbish at DIY, so there's a start.

How does a man live as a woman and not buy into the idea that "woman" is just a name for a gender stereotype?
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jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1670 on: January 26, 2023, 02:39:30 PM »
Why legislate for it?
Because men that identify as women are often subject to prejudice. It should be illegal to fire an employee for being a trans woman, for example.

Quote
What does being 'treated like a woman' of 'living like a woman' mean?

I have absolutely no idea. If I announced my intention to transition and I am told to live as a woman for a year in order to become eligible, what should I do differently? Can anybody tell me that?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1671 on: January 26, 2023, 03:34:08 PM »
Because men that identify as women are often subject to prejudice. It should be illegal to fire an employee for being a trans woman, for example.

I have absolutely no idea. If I announced my intention to transition and I am told to live as a woman for a year in order to become eligible, what should I do differently? Can anybody tell me that?
You are reifying the idea that someone is a 'trans women' which you then admit you can't define. Surely it's better to remove the idea of stereotyoes and make it illegal to have a dress code that applies to a single sex?

And again, having legislation that you admit isn't defined is worthless. And it creates the conflict with women's rights.



jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1672 on: January 26, 2023, 07:24:02 PM »
You are reifying the idea that someone is a 'trans women' which you then admit you can't define.
Trans women do exist. Some of them go so far as to have their genitalia extensively remodelled. There's a real condition here - no reifying needed.

Quote
Surely it's better to remove the idea of stereotyoes and make it illegal to have a dress code that applies to a single sex?
Sure it is. 
Quote
And again, having legislation that you admit isn't defined is worthless. And it creates the conflict with women's rights.

It's easy to define legislation that protects trans people's rights. e.g. the right not to get fired for being trans. The problems arise because they want what I would describe as a privilege i.e. the privilege to be exempt from restrictions applied to other males in female only spaces.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1673 on: January 28, 2023, 11:03:52 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1674 on: January 28, 2023, 11:06:43 AM »
Trans women do exist. Some of them go so far as to have their genitalia extensively remodelled. There's a real condition here - no reifying needed.
Sure it is. 
It's easy to define legislation that protects trans people's rights. e.g. the right not to get fired for being trans. The problems arise because they want what I would describe as a privilege i.e. the privilege to be exempt from restrictions applied to other males in female only spaces.
Men who say they are women exist. They aren't women unless you reify the stereotypes. Some msy be delusional, some maybe lying for fetishistic reasons, sone may be predators. What is a trans person? What is 'being trans'?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 04:00:45 PM by Nearly Sane »