Author Topic: Trans rights: a perspective  (Read 132384 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1725 on: March 13, 2023, 12:19:53 PM »
It's trivially easy to tell if somebody is Napoleon or not. Not so so easy to verify a claim to be "born in the wrong body".
On what basis might anyone have evidence to claim to be born on the wrong body? Indeed what does it even mean? If you allow an idea of 'souls' which this effectively is, how could you verify that they weren't Napoleon reincarnated?

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1728 on: March 19, 2023, 10:28:06 AM »
The failure of the Tavistock continues to be laid bare


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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1729 on: March 21, 2023, 07:35:25 PM »
Leo Varadkar gets wrong what happened in Scotland, and has just become aware of Barbie Kardashian who I've known about for well over two years but a small cheer for him

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/taoiseach-leo-varadkar-says-biological-males-should-not-be-in-womens-prisons-42398546.html

jeremyp

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1730 on: March 22, 2023, 11:03:47 AM »
On what basis might anyone have evidence to claim to be born on the wrong body?
If they say they were, what evidence do you have to show that they are liars?

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Indeed what does it even mean?

I don't know. I have no frame of reference as to what it is like. I can't even tell you what it feels like to be born in the right body. But I do know that some people are prepared to go through - what I would regard as horrific - medical procedures to make their bodies into a facsimile of what they feel is the right body. For the reason, I don't think we can dismiss their experience.

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If you allow an idea of 'souls' which this effectively is
I don't agree. Many parts of the human body are sexually dimorphic. Sometimes development can "go wrong" so that some parts bear the traits of the "wrong" sex. I don't see why the brain/mind would be the only organ that is locked to the size of the gametes you produce.

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how could you verify that they weren't Napoleon reincarnated?
Reincarnation is not a thing.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1731 on: March 22, 2023, 11:20:08 AM »
If they say they were, what evidence do you have to show that they are liars?
Who said anything about lying? If Alan Burns says he has a soul do you think that's evidence that he does?
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I don't know. I have no frame of reference as to what it is like. I can't even tell you what it feels like to be born in the right body. But I do know that some people are prepared to go through - what I would regard as horrific - medical procedures to make their bodies into a facsimile of what they feel is the right body. For the reason, I don't think we can dismiss their experience.
People with anorexia starve themselves - by your logic that's evidence that they may be too fat
 
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I don't agree. Many parts of the human body are sexually dimorphic. Sometimes development can "go wrong" so that some parts bear the traits of the "wrong" sex. I don't see why the brain/mind would be the only organ that is locked to the size of the gametes you produce. 
So you are arguing that there is such a thing as a man's brain and a woman's brain - what is your scientific evidence for this?

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Reincarnation is not a thing.
But you've said that individuals personal experoences that because you don't experience you can't kudge as incorrect. And yet here you precisely do that with reincarnation - your approach is inconsistent.

Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1732 on: March 22, 2023, 12:56:49 PM »
...
 So you are arguing that there is such a thing as a man's brain and a woman's brain - what is your scientific evidence for this?
...

There are certainly differences between male and female brains. Don't know about "minds" though.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1733 on: March 24, 2023, 02:29:22 AM »
World Athletics bans 'transgender' men from competing in female world ranking events

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1734 on: March 24, 2023, 10:03:20 AM »
There are certainly differences between male and female brains. Don't know about "minds" though.
This recent study seems to conclude there are hardly any differences between male and female brains and that brains are like other organs which are similar enough to be transplanted between women and men quite successfully. Though no one has ever done a brain transplant so not sure how successful it would be.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm

"Men and women's brains do differ slightly, but the key finding is that these distinctions are due to brain size, not sex or gender,"

"This means that the brain differences between large- and small-headed men are as great as the brain differences between the average man and woman," Dr. Eliot said. "And importantly, none of these size-related differences can account for familiar behavioral differences between men and women, such as empathy or spatial skills."

Publication bias is common in sex-difference research, she added, because the topic garners high interest.

"Sex differences are sexy, but this false impression that there is such a thing as a 'male brain' and a 'female brain' has had wide impact on how we treat boys and girls, men and women," Dr. Eliot said.
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Udayana

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1735 on: March 24, 2023, 11:34:54 AM »
This recent study seems to conclude there are hardly any differences between male and female brains and that brains are like other organs which are similar enough to be transplanted between women and men quite successfully. Though no one has ever done a brain transplant so not sure how successful it would be.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm

"Men and women's brains do differ slightly, but the key finding is that these distinctions are due to brain size, not sex or gender,"

"This means that the brain differences between large- and small-headed men are as great as the brain differences between the average man and woman," Dr. Eliot said. "And importantly, none of these size-related differences can account for familiar behavioral differences between men and women, such as empathy or spatial skills."

Publication bias is common in sex-difference research, she added, because the topic garners high interest.

"Sex differences are sexy, but this false impression that there is such a thing as a 'male brain' and a 'female brain' has had wide impact on how we treat boys and girls, men and women," Dr. Eliot said.

That's a good study. I'd been reading: Two minds The cognitive differences between men and women

I guess currently all we can say is that even if there are differences they do not seem to be significant enough to allow us to associate any other assumed differences with them.

What causes anyone into "feeling" that they are a man or in "feeling" that they are a woman? If it is not their body or their brain, then what?

What, if anything, does it mean to "be in the wrong body"?

« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 11:41:46 AM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1736 on: March 24, 2023, 01:25:36 PM »
That's a good study. I'd been reading: Two minds The cognitive differences between men and women

I guess currently all we can say is that even if there are differences they do not seem to be significant enough to allow us to associate any other assumed differences with them.

What causes anyone into "feeling" that they are a man or in "feeling" that they are a woman? If it is not their body or their brain, then what?

What, if anything, does it mean to "be in the wrong body"?
Why people think what they think or believe what they believe regardless of the lack of evidence for their beliefs or even evidence to the contrary is a complex area to unpick as there are probably many factors that contribute to our perspectives and beliefs about anything.

For example, unlike many other people, I would choose nuclear obliteration over giving in to Putin's threats. I have no idea why my feelings of aversion to placating Putin are more than my aversion to nuclear war. I don't choose my feelings or thoughts. I don't think the reason I think that way is based on my gender. Is there a biological reason for my preference?

That is not to say that I can't overcome my instinctive preference for risking nuclear war now or that I can't decide that I should make a choice based on reasons such as estimates of probable deaths due to future invasions by dictators vs deaths by nuclear war now or some such calculation. I can recognise that my gut emotional response of not giving in to dictators may not be the right response if I was the leader of a country rather than an ordinary citizen. So environment and circumstances have a lot to do with our perspectives. 

Your link seemed to identify XX and XY chromosomes and hormones as 2 main factors to the reason for any differences between male and female brains. Trans identifying individuals are biologically male and female and seem to have the cell biology and hormones that correspond with their sex. So it would seem that a neat biological basis for their belief that they should be the opposite gender has not been identified. Your link suggested altering a gene has an effect on the maternal instincts of mice. But still not sure why this would correspond to a particular gender identity in humans. Animals don't have gender identities.

A far as I can see gender is a social construct - a bit like being a punk or a goth. There is no need to identify as a punk or a goth or any other category but some people choose to do so for complex psychological reasons that it makes them feel good to do so.

It is possible to like certain aspects of the punk or goth look and tastes without actually identifying as a punk or a goth. The appeal of certain looks and tastes may have biological basis - the current thinking is our tastes are a mix of nature/ nurture. People have the option of dabbling in the punk or goth look when they feel like it without permanently altering their outward appearance - yet some people choose to embrace the identify more enthusiastically than others and do permanently alter their outward appearance to match what they feel like on the inside. Why some people are more enthusiastic / "obsessive" about these identities, especially as teenagers may be due to their insecurities and search for identity in their teens.

I remember when I was a teen I liked black clothes - probably because i did not feel confident enough in myself to wear bright clothes or the fashions for girls at the time as I thought I looked stupid trying - I thought I couldn't pull it off. A boy I was friends with made a comment that I was into Goth style  - and I had never considered myself a Goth but it sounded cool , so I adopted it as an identity for a while, because it made me feel more confident and gave me a reason to not experiment with the bright fashions of the 1980s that I felt made me look stupid. I also used to dress more like a boy - because the clothes were more comfortable and draped well so you felt less self-conscious. As a child I even wanted to be a boy until I reached puberty, because I enjoyed playing football with my brother and his friends and girls games and playing with dolls seemed very boring in comparison. Once I reached puberty I just accepted I was a girl who liked doing some of the stuff boys do and don't like doing some of the stuff girls like to do. I have no desire to nurture and look after someone else in terms of feeding them and worrying about their creature comforts or feelings, but do have a strong protective instinct to people being taken advantage of. I have no interest in buying lots of jewellery or bags but do like being tidy and clean and making my room look nice etc and dislike having to share a space with untidy men and women. So I have no idea why some people have a need to categorise themselves into any particular gender stereotype.

There is a suggestion that autism - which can manifest as obsessive behaviour in relation to categorising things - could be part of what drives trans-identifying people to thinking they are the 'wrong' category in terms of gender because they associate their tastes with the opposite category/ gender.

 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Aruntraveller

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1737 on: March 24, 2023, 02:36:43 PM »
Quote
I have no desire to nurture and look after someone else in terms of feeding them and worrying about their creature comforts or feelings, but do have a strong protective instinct to people being taken advantage of. I have no interest in buying lots of jewellery or bags but do like being tidy and clean and making my room look nice etc and dislike having to share a space with untidy men and women. So I have no idea why some people have a need to categorise themselves into any particular gender stereotype.

And this goes to the very core of the argument.

I have wondered for a long time what is it to feel like a man. Is my experience of "feeling like a man" the same as NS's or Outrider's etc. I very much doubt it. We are individuals locked into our own eco-system which lead us to behave/identify in certain ways. Is Martina Natrilova a man because she displays some of the qualities normally associated with men, or is a softly-spoken man with a feminine face interested in cookery a woman. The answer is, of course not.

The argument for transgenderism seems to me (at least) to be a reductive one. It insists men must conform to certain largely external presentations, and woman must present in other strictly defined ways. Whereas in actuality you have a wonderful diversity within both sexes that does not need any further classification.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1738 on: March 24, 2023, 07:19:34 PM »
It is half a century since I last engaged in serious study of what is now known as cognitive neuroscience. At that time I recall learning that there were differences between male and female brains which resulted in - in particular - cognitive differences between boys and girls, with boys being better at performing spacial tasks and girls having greater social and linguistic skills. One apparent structural difference was the interconnectivity of the cerebral hemispheres. The corpus callosum (the band of neural fibres connecting the hemispheres) is proportionally larger in females than males. In intellectual development girls could be 18 months/2 years ahead of boys.

And I recall being told once, by an HMI member, that the 11+ exam discriminated against girls. Grammar school places were available in fairly rigid quantities and so the top 15%(say) performers in the 11+ exam were transferred to grammar schools which were frequently single sex establishments.  Girls, more academically advanced, had to obtain a higher mark than did boys in order to be certain of a place.

Sex is a biological fact - in the great majority of cases the consequence of XX or XY genotypes. Gender is a social construct - the consequence of interaction between biology and social experiences. I do wonder if there are early life experiences which affect our understanding of our own gender.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1739 on: March 24, 2023, 10:40:51 PM »
And this goes to the very core of the argument.

I have wondered for a long time what is it to feel like a man. Is my experience of "feeling like a man" the same as NS's or Outrider's etc. I very much doubt it. We are individuals locked into our own eco-system which lead us to behave/identify in certain ways. Is Martina Natrilova a man because she displays some of the qualities normally associated with men, or is a softly-spoken man with a feminine face interested in cookery a woman. The answer is, of course not.

The argument for transgenderism seems to me (at least) to be a reductive one. It insists men must conform to certain largely external presentations, and woman must present in other strictly defined ways. Whereas in actuality you have a wonderful diversity within both sexes that does not need any further classification.
I agree. But I think people who identify as trans get comfort from labelling themselves.I can understand why because many football supporters or theists or Brits or other groups who categorise themselves also seem to derive a sense of purpose and belonging from their identity label. The difference is there is no conflicting biological category associated with those labels. Whereas someone identifying as a baby when they are a grown man and demanding access to protected spaces for babies would not be accommodated even if they dressed and behaved like a baby.

So I understand if a boy/ man feels happiest wearing pretty clothes and wearing make-up and feeling pretty and like a princess or more “feminine” than the average man, and I understand if a girl / woman feels happiest dressing like a boy and feeling muscular and strong and more “masculine” than the average woman. If they want to be called a different name to match their chosen identity, fine with me. But when their obsession with their label, category or identity extends to demanding access to privileges and rights that put biological women at risk, then it makes sense if the majority in society wants to draw a line and not indulge this self-obsessed preoccupation with their identity, especially if they can’t see any over-riding consideration or benefit in indulging the obsession that would outweigh the harm. Even if the obsessive preoccupation is due to some form of  neuro-divergence such as being on the autism spectrum.

I would make the same argument about people who obsess about anything including religion. If your self-obsessed preoccupation with your religious identity is shown to put others at serious risk of being disadvantaged, it makes sense if the majority of society decide to limit the obsessive behaviour unless there is some over-riding benefit to society despite the disadvantaging of another group.

This seems to be the point of contention. Some Trans lobbyists argue that the mental health issues and self-harm trans identifying people experience due to their obsessive need for affirmation and feeling included outweighs all other considerations such as the risk of disadvantaging biological women or causing biological women physical harm. Trans people’s need for affirmation and their mental health issues and any extreme over-reaction to a lack of affirmation may be due to some form of autism. Identifying as trans would then just be another form of neurological divergence that needs to managed.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1740 on: March 24, 2023, 11:01:26 PM »
It is half a century since I last engaged in serious study of what is now known as cognitive neuroscience. At that time I recall learning that there were differences between male and female brains which resulted in - in particular - cognitive differences between boys and girls, with boys being better at performing spacial tasks and girls having greater social and linguistic skills. One apparent structural difference was the interconnectivity of the cerebral hemispheres. The corpus callosum (the band of neural fibres connecting the hemispheres) is proportionally larger in females than males. In intellectual development girls could be 18 months/2 years ahead of boys.

And I recall being told once, by an HMI member, that the 11+ exam discriminated against girls. Grammar school places were available in fairly rigid quantities and so the top 15%(say) performers in the 11+ exam were transferred to grammar schools which were frequently single sex establishments.  Girls, more academically advanced, had to obtain a higher mark than did boys in order to be certain of a place.

Sex is a biological fact - in the great majority of cases the consequence of XX or XY genotypes. Gender is a social construct - the consequence of interaction between biology and social experiences. I do wonder if there are early life experiences which affect our understanding of our own gender.
I can see that on average there seem to some traits more associated with one sex compared to another. But it’s a mystery as to what biological reason would lead a man who has a poor sense of direction or spatial awareness but the greater social and linguistic skills of the average woman to decide to try to override his biological sex characteristics and get hormone treatments and maybe even have fairly drastic surgery.

I think the recent explosion in people identifying as trans seems to be driven by changes in culture and environment - the internet connects people and allows them to encourage others to embrace certain ideologies and identities and gives people a sense of belonging and purpose that may help them combat feelings of anxiety, depression, insecurity or loneliness. But if they find obstacles to their search for identity and meaning, their neurological divergence may cause even more depression and suicidal tendencies.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1741 on: March 25, 2023, 09:03:24 AM »
Janice Turner on the World Athletics decision


https://archive.vn/Le2nY

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1742 on: March 25, 2023, 09:33:43 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1743 on: March 26, 2023, 04:27:01 PM »
Given he's talking about sex, misgendering is nonsense, and in addition misgendering is nonsense.


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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1744 on: April 02, 2023, 11:29:00 AM »
Don't like tweets

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1745 on: April 05, 2023, 02:10:10 PM »
Interesting stuff - will be interesting to see how Labour play it.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1746 on: April 05, 2023, 04:19:12 PM »
Interesting stuff - will be interesting to see how Labour play it.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018


And Labour welcome the news. This gets even more interesting



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Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1748 on: April 09, 2023, 12:42:28 PM »
Looking like Yousaf's govt may challenge UK govt's use of section 35 as regards the Gender Recognition Reform Bill. To be fair, no decision on how to proceed here would be without major issues.


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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trans rights: a perspective
« Reply #1749 on: April 14, 2023, 11:21:35 AM »
Excellent article from Victoria Smith


https://thecritic.co.uk/running-like-a-girl/