Anti-Semitism in UK

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a CNN article about anti-semitism in the UK.  Is it true..do you think?!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/17/uk/uk-anti-semitism-intl/index.html

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Mark Lewis, a famed libel and privacy lawyer, is leaving Britain. Worn down by years of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats, he has decided enough is enough.

The 53-year-old plans to begin a new life in Israel with his partner, Mandy Blumenthal, by year's end. Both were born and raised in England. Both are very ready to leave.

"I just want to get out of here. It's a massive thing to do but I've actually had enough," Lewis said. "People might dislike me in Israel because of my political views, might think I'm too right-wing or left-wing or whatever, but they are not going to dislike me for being Jewish."

Two people have previously been imprisoned for threatening to murder him for being Jewish, Lewis said. Now, he said, he's reached the stage where he's "almost being desensitized to the threats" -- from both right and left -- such is their regularity.

The couple's decision comes as accusations of anti-Semitism dog Britain's main opposition Labour Party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn. At the same time, incidents of recorded anti-Semitism are near record levels.

Some British Jews who have the financial means have started to consider buying property in Israel, Falter said, even if they aren't planning an imminent move. Of course, not all can afford to relocate even if they want to.

"It's a very sad state of affairs because we have all grown up here and for most us this is where our grandparents found refuge during the darkest days of humanity," said Falter.

The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.

"I don't know how many people are actively thinking on those terms of leaving the country but certainly a lot of Jewish people are worrying about what the future might hold," Dave Rich, head of policy for the CST, told CNN.

Although it's hard to quantify, the publicity around anti-Semitism may have led both to more incidents occurring and to more being reported, he said.

"There is just general concern across the Jewish community at the moment about anti-Semitism, about the fact that it seems to be part of mainstream politics and mainstream life in a way that it never used to be."

**************

Cheers.

Sriram

[Nearly Sane]

Complex question, so don't have time to answer. It's not a true/not true dichotomy. Will reply when I have time to do it justice.


Note some of the issues are related to the discussion here


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=15962.0

[Rhiannon]

I have Jewish friends who agree with etc sentiment expressed. They live in a predominantly Jewish part of London and have seen a big increase in hate crime. Three of their kids have moved to Israel.

I don't get it. I don't think about someone's Jewishness any more than I think about whether they come from Barnsley or like tuna sandwiches. Antisemitism completely baffles me.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi everyone,

Here is a CNN article about anti-semitism in the UK.  Is it true..do you think?!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/17/uk/uk-anti-semitism-intl/index.html

**************

Mark Lewis, a famed libel and privacy lawyer, is leaving Britain. Worn down by years of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats, he has decided enough is enough.

The 53-year-old plans to begin a new life in Israel with his partner, Mandy Blumenthal, by year's end. Both were born and raised in England. Both are very ready to leave.

"I just want to get out of here. It's a massive thing to do but I've actually had enough," Lewis said. "People might dislike me in Israel because of my political views, might think I'm too right-wing or left-wing or whatever, but they are not going to dislike me for being Jewish."

Two people have previously been imprisoned for threatening to murder him for being Jewish, Lewis said. Now, he said, he's reached the stage where he's "almost being desensitized to the threats" -- from both right and left -- such is their regularity.

The couple's decision comes as accusations of anti-Semitism dog Britain's main opposition Labour Party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn. At the same time, incidents of recorded anti-Semitism are near record levels.

Some British Jews who have the financial means have started to consider buying property in Israel, Falter said, even if they aren't planning an imminent move. Of course, not all can afford to relocate even if they want to.

"It's a very sad state of affairs because we have all grown up here and for most us this is where our grandparents found refuge during the darkest days of humanity," said Falter.

The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.

"I don't know how many people are actively thinking on those terms of leaving the country but certainly a lot of Jewish people are worrying about what the future might hold," Dave Rich, head of policy for the CST, told CNN.

Although it's hard to quantify, the publicity around anti-Semitism may have led both to more incidents occurring and to more being reported, he said.

"There is just general concern across the Jewish community at the moment about anti-Semitism, about the fact that it seems to be part of mainstream politics and mainstream life in a way that it never used to be."

**************

Cheers.

Sriram

If Corbyn does not get in and the extreme right do....would the UK be any safer for the people mentioned ?

[Sriram]

Yes...anti-semitism is difficult to understand.  I am not sure if it is a racial or religious or immigration or financial issue.

[Nearly Sane]

So now I have a bit more time. Is there anti-Semitism in the UK, yes. Always had been always will be, I suspect. There are few if any places where Jewish people have not and do not suffer from anti-Semitism.

Is there an increase in anti-Semitism? Not sure. There is as noted in the article an increase in attacks but noting attacks as anti-Semitic is relatively recent so it may be about improved recording. That isn't to say that there is Not a problem to be dealt with but in my memory it seemed a lot more acceptable for politicians to say anti-Semitic things and not be questioned.


Is any rise attributable to the election of Cornyn as leader of Labour Party? In my opinion,no, well not in any direct way. Traditionally, as Vlad has covered, the anti-Semitism we have seen here has been from the far right. At the same time there has been a strong anti Zionist streak in the left, and that has been supportive of Palestinian rights. Almost all of this is in no way anti Semitic but at the extreme , those who are anti Semitic on the left have used it as a cover.

That said the whole idea of left/right at these extremes, while a shorthand that serves well in the centre breaks down. It's often been suggested that politics in this sense is circular, and at the extremes meets up. Certainly in regard to how it has shown in the UK over the last half century, that seems true.

The impact of some of the rhetoric used by those supporting Brexit may also be a factor. While its coded dogwhistle references were in the main meant to say Muslim, it does in general just say foreigners. In addition the whole question of anti Semitism becoming about Jewish people as opposed to what were referred to as the Semitic races, allows a blurring in that anyone a bit not white enough from a land far enough away is seen as part of the problem.


While I think the Labour Party does have an issue, that it now has a minority of far left anti Semites in it, in part related to a stronger support for Palestinan rights by Corbyn (though I don't think he deliberately encourages it), the deliberate manipulation of that by parts for f the media such as the Daily Mail for their own ends, has been imo at least part of the increase in anti Semitic attacks, and the feelings of insecurity  expressed by those in the article, and those friends Rhiannon wrote of, and the feelings of my Jewish friends. For balance here, I should note that a minority of my Jewish friends are this as a way of shutting down criticism of Israel, and are supportive of Corbyn. I


I have been following the internal debates in the Labour party on this and as with all debates nowadays it seems that the two sides feel driven to extreme positions because any form of compromise suggestions leads to being shot by both sides. I cannot currently see a way this can be dealt with in a fashion that will not lead to some form of split. That is, or course, in part w hat was the aim of those who are Corbyn as a danger to their own interests.


I am conscious that in terms of posts on here this is already relatively long, but in !any ways it's just a short sketch.

[Rhiannon]

I think that maybe the perceived rise in antisemitism could stem in part from the trend to put labels on ourselves and others. The public discourse is very much that if you are this, then you are not that. One staggering comment piece in The Guardian recently said that white women cry at work as a way of using their tears as a racist weapon. Couldn't possibly be because they were upset, because that would be making them human and vulnerable, the same as the woman of colour who wrote the article. Probably another thread in here somewhere, but we live in times in which 'others' are dehumanised, which in turn makes us put up our defences as we think that we in turn are viewed as less than human by those not like us. When my Jewish friends were burgled that may well have been because they are wealthy, but they saw it and the police response as a form of attack on their Jewishnes.

And I'd also like to throw in the rise of internet conspiracy theories, many of which are antisemitic in tone and which a frightening number of people swallow whole.

[Nearly Sane]

As an addendum, in one of the ongoing Twitter slats last night former Labour MP, and current councillor, Jim Sheridan posted a tweet, details of which are in the link beliw, which has lead to his suspension. This will be seized on to show the Labour Party has a problem with anti Semitism by those areas of the media that both pander to those spreading Islamophobia,, and spread it themselvex. This isn't to excuse what is obviously an anti Semitic comment but that not everything here can be understood without wondering about the motivations of those involved.



https://news.sky.com/story/labour-suspends-councillor-jim-sheridan-after-anti-semitism-rant-11475559

[Rhiannon]

And the weird way in which Labour conducts itself in the Age of Corbyn has only added fuel to the suggestions of anti-semitism, when what we are actually looking at at least some of the time is Protecting Jeremy.

[Nearly Sane]

And the weird way in which Labour conducts itself in the Age of Corbyn has only added fuel to the suggestions of anti-semitism, when what we are actually looking at at least some of the time is Protecting Jeremy.

Given the current internecine battle, the idea that is much of a thing as Labour here seems odd to me. Though the current battleground is anti semitism, it's multifaceted and I don't see it as caused purely by those who support Corbyn.

[Rhiannon]

Given the current internecine battle, the idea that is much of a thing as Labour here seems odd to me. Though the current battleground is anti semitism, it's multifaceted and I don't see it as caused purely by those who support Corbyn.

Antisemitism is only one thing driving Labour apart. It isn't only caused by Corbyn supporters of course, but what looks like antisemitism is sometimes a bodged attempt at protecting the leadership.

[Nearly Sane]

Antisemitism is only one thing driving Labour apart. It isn't only caused by Corbyn supporters of course, but what looks like antisemitism is sometimes a bodged attempt at protecting the leadership.

Agree but what is often portrayed as an attempt to reduce anti Semitic is also sometimes an attempt to attack the leadership. This is the point I was making about people being driven to the extremes by the current problems.

[Sriram]

I am surprised that NS and Rhinnon have so much to say about this important subject but no one else seems to have anything to contribute.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I am surprised that NS and Rhinnon have so much to say about this important subject but no one else seems to have anything to contribute.

There were two main organisations in at the beginning of the Corbyn antisemitism charges one of which, it's leadership was mainly senior Conservative party members. That fact should I feel be known. The practice of the press going for the labour leader happened to Miliband, Corbyn's jewish predecessor.

The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.

[wigginhall]

And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel. 

[Nearly Sane]

And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel.

That muddle isn't just in Labour.

[Nearly Sane]

There were two main organisations in at the beginning of the Corbyn antisemitism charges one of which, it's leadership was mainly senior Conservative party members. That fact should I feel be known. The practice of the press going for the labour leader happened to Miliband, Corbyn's jewish predecessor.

The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.

Just to flag Vlad is factually incorrect about the issues not being raised in 2015


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-over-claim-he-had-never-met-lebanese-activist


That doesn't mean Cornyn is actually anti semtic, that the issues in the Labour Party are any cause of the noted increase in anti semitic attacks, or that the idea that this might be part of a smart campaign by some.


Just as that there is a smear campaign doesn't mean there are no anti Semites in Labour, or th at there is no issue about Corbyn's behsviour.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just to flag Vlad is factually incorrect about the issues not being raised in 2015


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-over-claim-he-had-never-met-lebanese-activist

Where did I say issues were not raised in 2015?

[Nearly Sane]

Where did I say issues were not raised in 2015?

in the post I had replied to when you write


'The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

in the post I had replied to when you write


'The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.

Yes, but where do I say issues were not raised in 2015? All I say about 2015 is that he wasn't foreseen to last until 2020.

Now if antisemitism was an important feature of the 2017 election how do I not recall that and why was Corbyn still acceptable to so many voters?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, but where do I say issues were not raised in 2015? All I say about 2015 is that he wasn't foreseen to last until 2020.

Now if antisemitism was an important feature of the 2017 election how do I not recall that and why was Corbyn still acceptable to so many voters?

You said the article was wrong to mention 2015, so given that the issue was raised then on what way was it wrong to mention it?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You said the article was wrong to mention 2015, so given that the issue was raised then on what way was it wrong to mention it?

The article gives completely the wrong context of Corbyn in 2015. It gives the impression that there was much quaking amongst the populace when Corbyn was elected. The only quaking was due to laughter. Toby Young's view that labour would now never get elected was the order of the day. The tories, who were supremely represented in the JLC, maintained that view right up to the 2017 election.


There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism about this.

[Nearly Sane]

The article gives completely the wrong context of Corbyn in 2015. It gives the impression that there was much quaking amongst the populace when Corbyn was elected. The only quaking was due to laughter. Toby Young's view that labour would now never get elected was the order of the day. The tories, who were supremely represented in the JLC, maintained that view right up to the 2017 election.


There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism about this.

No, what it says as regards 2015 is

'The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.' Nothing about quaking populace. Now, as covered in my reply to Sriram, I don't think anti semitism in these terms starts with Corbyn's election but is a much longer term question.

[trippymonkey]

Anything said about whether it another religion's loonies that are doing this or have I missed something?

[SteveH]

And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel.

Largely because Israel's supporters, especially in the evangelical Christian lobby, deliberately muddle it.