Anti-Semitism in UK

[Nearly Sane]

Corbyn refers to the Zionist activists in the audience who came up to argue with the speaker, Manuel Hassassian, who gave a speech on the history of Palestine as “They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."

“Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”

Not seeing the problem yet. Where is the generalisation about Zionists or Jews? What is the issue with calling parts of a speech made by a Palestinian "English irony" or offering help in understanding Manuel's use of English irony?

So when he says 'having lived in this country', how are you translating that to mean all English written language and English speaking countries?

[Nearly Sane]

That is SO obviously what I DIDN'T say !!!!!

WHY!!!!

[trippymonkey]

I asked if said qualities have no effect. As here....

Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?

[Nearly Sane]

I asked if said qualities have no effect. As here....

Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?

I don't think those are qualities. What do you think they tell you ABOUT character?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So when he says 'having lived in this country', how are you translating that to mean all English written language and English speaking countries?

I haven't generalised about "all" anything.

Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony. Manuel is not English and may well have lived in England part of his life, since he was the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, but not all his life.

The activists who "berated" Manuel after the speech "don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."

What is the problem with Corbyn's opinion that some people with whom he came into contact understood English irony and some people didn't, if all the people he was referring to were originally from abroad and have then lived in England?

[Nearly Sane]

I haven't generalised about "all" anything.

Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony. Manuel is not English and may well have lived in England part of his life, since he was the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, but not all his life.

The activists who "berated" Manuel after the speech "don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."

What is the problem with Corbyn's opinion that some people with whom he came into contact understood English irony and some people didn't, if all the people he was referring to were originally from abroad and have then lived in England?

Who said you had 'generalised '? I see you missed out the 'in this country' bit again. Is this country the US? After all that's what you have implied with your translation of this country to meaning the English language?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Who said you had 'generalised '? I see you missed out the 'in this country' bit again. Is this country the US? After all that's what you have implied with your translation of this country to meaning the English language?

How are you using the word "all"?

Incorrect. I have not missed out anything about "in this country". I mentioned England, several times. I mentioned the US when I said "English irony" could be understood by foreign people. Such as Manuel for example.

ETA: I have lived in this country almost all my life. There are probably things I don't understand about  English [insert some cultural reference or aspect here]. What's wrong with the idea that you can live in a country all your life and not understand particular cultural aspects, especially if you have cultural/ political/ ethnic/ religious ties to a foreign country? There are foreign people who have lived their whole lives in Sri Lanka who do not understand certain cultural aspects of Sri Lankan communities. There are foreign people in Saudi and Dubai who have lived there their whole lives but don't understand certain Arab cultural aspects. Seems reasonable.

[SteveH]

Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony.

¿Qué?

[Udayana]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45435365

OK, Up to now I've been seeing Corbyn as an obstinate old fool over the IHRA issue. But, after watching the BBC programmes on British Jews over the last couple of days, have been reconsidering the whole Israel/Palestinian conflict.

Mostly I see it as an outcome of the normal ebb and flow of history - Palestinians having been defeated, unfairly or not, need to get on with their lives, not, over 50 years later, be living as refugees. As they have practically no means of defeating the Israelis they could just give up on the idea of getting back land that once belonged to their grandparents. Terrorism and firing toy rockets doesn't cut it, though I can understand the negative attitude: It does make me angry when Netanyahu or Mark Regev are on the news and lying their arses off.       

I don't believe in "race" as a scientific idea or as a useful concept, people should all be treated fairly irrespective of ancestral genetic or historical background. Mostly this means that people should be treated the same. The only exception, imv, concerns minority ethnic or cultural groups that are in danger of extinction or devastation, and need separate spaces until they can eventually merge in with the rest of humanity.

However, Zionism fundamentally embraces the concept of race and Israel was founded on that basis. The adoption of the Nation-State Bill as a Basic Law in July incorporates racism as part of the constitution. I can only conclude that Israel is a racist endeavour. 

So .. even though I don't accept that people are of different "races" and am willing to accept that "Israel has a right to exist", I am, according to the IHRA definitions, an anti-semite.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'm fine being labelled anti-semitic. I figure I'd rather be called an anti-semite than stop saying that Israel, or indeed any other country that defines race as the criteria for immigration, is a racist endeavour. I'll take being called anti-semitic as a compliment in that context, as it means I don't support racism.

I understand your point about the Palestinians losing. But the issue is that more and more land is being taken for illegal settlements so it's not surprising that the Palestinians keep fighting. They might not be able to defeat Israel but they don't need to roll over and just let them keep taking more land without putting up some kind of fight.

Ben-Gurion acknowledged this when he said:

"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. … I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."

"In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine… let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them.
A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us...

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs."     

[Udayana]

I mostly agree.

In 1938 though,  a nationalist and racist outlook on world affairs were quite usual, we should have come on a long way from that.

Israel should adopt the UN resolutions concerning it, stop extending the settlements and negotiate in good faith for peace.
   

[Sassy]

It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.

We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.

Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?

[ad_orientem]

It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.

We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.

Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?

Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.

[Aruntraveller]

It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.

We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.

Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?

And how about Native Americans in the USA ?

Will Mr Trump allow them to claim back their land. No he won't, yet another great example of his "Christian values" - screw anyone who gets in my way, whatever the cost. You don't half talk nonsense.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.

We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.

Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?

Not all Jews support the tactics of the Israeli government. There are Jewish teenagers in Israel who have faced prosecution for refusing to serve in the IDF. Former IDF soldiers have spoken out about the way they were required to treat Palestinian civilians as 2nd class citizens, entering their homes with guns as part of routine operations in occupied areas, disturbing sleeping children and searching their rooms and then leaving, reinforcing the sense of their own powerlessness in Palestinian minds and the uselessness of non-violent action or diplomacy in ending occupation.

I doubt anyone thought people could walk into an already populated region and militarily declare a new country against the wishes of a substantial number of its inhabitants without it leading to conflict. Based on their speeches and writings at the time, the key Zionists who conceived the plan did not anticipate a peaceful outcome.

Peace is rarely achieved through the use of missiles, guns, soldiers, and roadblocks. Killing civilians leads to a political cause with international supporters and also leads to more people willing to fight and die for revenge/ freedom. People who have their daily lives disrupted and made unnecessarily difficult, who are prevented from getting the normal access to hospitals and schools and a future that we take for granted, and whose homes are destroyed tend to not feel very peaceful.

[SteveH]

Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.

Exactemundo. Israel is to the present what South Africa was to the 60s, 70s and 80s, and should have the same pariah status.

[trippymonkey]

So when did the Muslims - oh sorry PALESTINIANS - move in then?

[SteveH]

So when did the Muslims - oh sorry PALESTINIANS - move in then?

Go on, then - give us the usual Zionist bollocks about them only moving there shortly before 1948.

[trippymonkey]

NO NO I'm not THAT daft !?!?!?
Can you say - after the invention of Islam - when it was Muslims 'occupied' any OTHER part of the world apart from Makkah?

Nick

[SteveH]

No, I can't. What is your point, exactly?

[trippymonkey]

WELLLLL You gave the impression you think you know the history of Judaism & Islam - politics inc.
Sorry if I was wrong.

Nick

[Sassy]

And how about Native Americans in the USA ?

Will Mr Trump allow them to claim back their land. No he won't, yet another great example of his "Christian values" - screw anyone who gets in my way, whatever the cost. You don't half talk nonsense.

We all know the red indian is the only true native of America.  As for your reply... taking something out of context to make it something it never was and which bears no resemblance to the issue at hand shows a lack on your part. A lack which causes you to attack and make something up to enable you to do so but makes no real sense in the reality of the argument.

[Sassy]

Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.

Roman Catholic jealousy isn't pretty however you look at it.  The Pope helped kill millions of Jews by doing nothing to stop Hitler.  Israel belongs to the Jews just as the many Countries and natives of their countries belong to those which were once the British Empire.   When you own something it belongs to the owner NO matter where it is. But the reality is Christ does not belong to the Roman Catholic Church he is a Jew and the true believers belong to Christ and the true Church which the builders were the Jews.  Do you think God is not aware? It is just the pope and the others haven't realised it yet. ONLY one intercessor and his Name is Jesus Christ and one Spirit who binds us all the Holy Spirit. UNDERSTANDING would stop a lot of the hateful and hurtful replies men make.

[Sassy]

Not all Jews support the tactics of the Israeli government. There are Jewish teenagers in Israel who have faced prosecution for refusing to serve in the IDF. Former IDF soldiers have spoken out about the way they were required to treat Palestinian civilians as 2nd class citizens, entering their homes with guns as part of routine operations in occupied areas, disturbing sleeping children and searching their rooms and then leaving, reinforcing the sense of their own powerlessness in Palestinian minds and the uselessness of non-violent action or diplomacy in ending occupation.

I doubt anyone thought people could walk into an already populated region and militarily declare a new country against the wishes of a substantial number of its inhabitants without it leading to conflict. Based on their speeches and writings at the time, the key Zionists who conceived the plan did not anticipate a peaceful outcome.

Peace is rarely achieved through the use of missiles, guns, soldiers, and roadblocks. Killing civilians leads to a political cause with international supporters and also leads to more people willing to fight and die for revenge/ freedom. People who have their daily lives disrupted and made unnecessarily difficult, who are prevented from getting the normal access to hospitals and schools and a future that we take for granted, and whose homes are destroyed tend to not feel very peaceful.

Takes two to fight

[jeremyp]

It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.

The Romans took over ruling Palestine over a period of years in the first century CE. Saying that the Jews have a right to that land is about equivalent to arguing that the Welsh have a right to England. The only difference is that, by accident of history, there's a book written by Jews that says God gave them that land.