Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations

[Nearly Sane]

Very odd case, if serious accusations, then why no police, and why would arbitration be involved?



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45287672

[Roses]

I vaguely remember hearing about the Salmond allegations at the time. The police should always investigate, I can't imagine why anyone would wish to make up stories of this nature.

My parents didn't believe me when I told them the pastor of the Pentecostal church we attended had touched me inappropriately when I was 14. They didn't confront the guy about it.

[Nearly Sane]

This is the first publicity these allegations have received. Since there have been cases of false allegations of sexual assault in the past, your inability to imagine the motivation of why people might do so is irrelevant to the need for this to be pursued through the proper channels with Salmond being innocent till proven guilty.

[Gordon]

In addition to there being no police involvement as far as is known, and if the matter is a stage of investigation that is prior to any police investigation being considered, it reads as if Salmond himself has brought this into the public domain and, according to the BBC website, is prepared to be interviewed.

This seems even odder, since the Scottish Government isn't commenting other than to acknowledge his legal case, since anything he does say seems likely to be prejudicial - but then again he has legal advise, so perhaps we just have to be await developments.       

[Nearly Sane]

He's now been reported to the police apparently.


https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/snp/news/97766/alex-salmond-reported-police-over-sexual-assault

[Roses]

This is the first publicity these allegations have received. Since there have been cases of false allegations of sexual assault in the past, your inability to imagine the motivation of why people might do so is irrelevant to the need for this to be pursued through the proper channels with Salmond being innocent till proven guilty.

Strange, because I thought I had heard about them a few years ago.

[Nearly Sane]

Strange, because I thought I had heard about them a few years ago.

Memory is a fickle mistress

[Roses]

Memory is a fickle mistress

Apparently so, especially when you are as old and senile as my wonderful kids tell me I am.

[Robbie]

Not really, I have vague recollections of hearing something similar(not actually hearing,must've been an internet news report), but didn't take much notice as allegations seemed to be unsubstantiated. Oh where will it all end?

[Nearly Sane]

Not really, I have vague recollections of hearing something similar(not actually hearing,must've been an internet news report), but didn't take much notice as allegations seemed to be unsubstantiated. Oh where will it all end?

There haven't been allegations of sexual assault against Salmond previously. I think that possibly what you and Floo might be misremembering is 'Solero girl'

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13413843._Solero_girl__snap_landed_me_in_hot_water__admits_Salmond/

[Roses]

There haven't been allegations of sexual assault against Salmond previously. I think that possibly what you and Floo might be misremembering is 'Solero girl'

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13413843._Solero_girl__snap_landed_me_in_hot_water__admits_Salmond/

Could be, I don't remember the details.

[Nearly Sane]

Could be, I don't remember the details.

Which has, of course, got nothing to do with sexual assault. The issue here is that if people mistakenly think it relates to something that they have heard before, then they are more likely to give something credence. In addition if they then report their wrong memory it can become for others a confirmation of some similar incorrect memory.

[Roses]

Which has, of course, got nothing to do with sexual assault. The issue here is that if people mistakenly think it relates to something that they have heard before, then they are more likely to give something credence. In addition if they then report their wrong memory it can become for others a confirmation of some similar incorrect memory.

If you say so, I am sitting to attention, like good girl.

[Robbie]

I won't think about it again* until the allegations are disproven/proven. Anyone in public life is fair game for accusations. I'm sorry it's him though but he may well not have anything at all to worry about. *Not that I was thinking about it, didn't know until saw this threadwhich seemed to strike a chord but no, I imagined that. Didn't know about the Solero business either.

[Aruntraveller]

Anyone in public life is fair game for accusations.

Why? That sounds rather cruel to me. Do we not have it within our power to reserve judgement and treat others as we ourselves would like to be treated, rather than thinking it is somehow OK that because you are in the public domain you are "fair game".

In the long run that will put off decent people wanting to be involved in public life, and you will end up with the lunatics running the asylum.

[Nearly Sane]

My reading is that Robbie was wanting to imply 'seems to be' fair game rather than 'should be' fair game.

[Aruntraveller]

My reading is that Robbie was wanting to imply 'seems to be' fair game rather than 'should be' fair game.

Yes that makes more sense - it didn't sound like Robbie's usually measured approach to issues!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Craig Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, apparently faced a similar situation to Salmond.

" I too was accused of hideous offences under a civil service disciplinary code and barred from taking any action to defend myself. I was not allowed to speak to anybody at all about the charges, and particularly not allowed to know the identity of my accusers, or to organise witnesses in my defence – which appears the exact procedure which Alex Salmond now, with absolute justice, complains of. These Civil Service disciplinary investigations are contrary to all rules of natural justice, and designed to facilitate executive stitch-ups, not to uncover the truth....

...The charges against me were entirely fake and entirely vexatious, even malicious, issued after I had objected to British complicity in torture in the “War on Terror”, which the government denied at the time, calling me a liar, though now admits. The charges were designed to destroy my reputation. "

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/when-they-decide-to-get-you/

Murray says the government leaked the charges to the Daily Mail to ruin his reputation and he suffered a mental breakdown at not being allowed to defend himself. He said he repeatedly asked the Foreign Office to refer the matter to the police so he could get a fairer investigation, but the FCO refused. Eventually he was cleared.

[Nearly Sane]

Craig Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, apparently faced a similar situation to Salmond.

" I too was accused of hideous offences under a civil service disciplinary code and barred from taking any action to defend myself. I was not allowed to speak to anybody at all about the charges, and particularly not allowed to know the identity of my accusers, or to organise witnesses in my defence – which appears the exact procedure which Alex Salmond now, with absolute justice, complains of. These Civil Service disciplinary investigations are contrary to all rules of natural justice, and designed to facilitate executive stitch-ups, not to uncover the truth....

...The charges against me were entirely fake and entirely vexatious, even malicious, issued after I had objected to British complicity in torture in the “War on Terror”, which the government denied at the time, calling me a liar, though now admits. The charges were designed to destroy my reputation. "

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/when-they-decide-to-get-you/

Murray says the government leaked the charges to the Daily Mail to ruin his reputation and he suffered a mental breakdown at not being allowed to defend himself. He said he repeatedly asked the Foreign Office to refer the matter to the police so he could get a fairer investigation, but the FCO refused. Eventually he was cleared.

Given the lack of information any claims to this being similar are specious.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Given the lack of information any claims to this being similar are specious.

The lack of information during the official complaints procedure and the claim that the disciplinary process is unjust are precisely what makes the claims similar.

In a statement posted on Twitter, Mr Salmond accused the permanent secretary to the Scottish government of “behaving unlawfully” in applying official complaints procedures.

He claimed he had been unable to see documentation in order to challenge complaints, adding he refuted all allegations made against him, branding some of them “patently ridiculous”.

The former first minister said he would “answer to the complaints both comprehensively and publicly” if a judicial review found procedures used against him had been unlawful.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alex-salmond-latest-sexual-misconduct-allegations-sues-scottish-government-a8505586.html

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/24/alex-salmond-calls-sexual-misconduct-claims-ridiculous

"In an extensive round of media interviews on Friday, Salmond vigorously denied the accusations and repeatedly accused Leslie Evans, the permanent secretary to the Scottish government, of mishandling the investigation.

It was “flawed and bereft of natural justice”, he told a press conference near Linlithgow, claiming he had been assured by government officials from the beginning that it would remain confidential but had never been allowed to see the detailed complaints or evidence against him."

[Nearly Sane]

The lack of information during the official complaints procedure and the claim that the disciplinary process is unjust are precisely what makes the claims similar.

In a statement posted on Twitter, Mr Salmond accused the permanent secretary to the Scottish government of “behaving unlawfully” in applying official complaints procedures.

He claimed he had been unable to see documentation in order to challenge complaints, adding he refuted all allegations made against him, branding some of them “patently ridiculous”.

The former first minister said he would “answer to the complaints both comprehensively and publicly” if a judicial review found procedures used against him had been unlawful.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alex-salmond-latest-sexual-misconduct-allegations-sues-scottish-government-a8505586.html

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/24/alex-salmond-calls-sexual-misconduct-claims-ridiculous

"In an extensive round of media interviews on Friday, Salmond vigorously denied the accusations and repeatedly accused Leslie Evans, the permanent secretary to the Scottish government, of mishandling the investigation.

It was “flawed and bereft of natural justice”, he told a press conference near Linlithgow, claiming he had been assured by government officials from the beginning that it would remain confidential but had never been allowed to see the detailed complaints or evidence against him."

Except it isn't clear for example that Salmond does not know who his accusers are. Indeed it would appear from the reports that he does, so that similarity is wrong. Further the official complaints procedure was established for Scotland last year following the #metoo campaign. Now it may mirror earlier British civil service procedures but it is the Scottish govt Salmond is suing not the British civil service.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Except it isn't clear for example that Salmond does not know who his accusers are. Indeed it would appear from the reports that he does, so that similarity is wrong. Further the official complaints procedure was established for Scotland last year following the #metoo campaign. Now it may mirror earlier British civil service procedures but it is the Scottish govt Salmond is suing not the British civil service.

The similarity is that Salmond is saying a civil service disciplinary procedure into sexual misconduct allegations lacks natural justice. Craig Murray also said "These Civil Service disciplinary investigations are contrary to all rules of natural justice, and designed to facilitate executive stitch-ups, not to uncover the truth...."

I don't think it's relevant if the civil service is British or Scottish, since Murray is focusing on the issue of alleged lack of justice in Civil Service disciplinary procedures due to the difficulty in defending yourself against allegations .

 

[Nearly Sane]

The similarity is that Salmond is saying a civil service disciplinary procedure into sexual misconduct allegations lacks natural justice. Craig Murray also said "These Civil Service disciplinary investigations are contrary to all rules of natural justice, and designed to facilitate executive stitch-ups, not to uncover the truth...."

I don't think it's relevant if the civil service is British or Scottish, since Murray is focusing on the issue of alleged lack of justice in Civil Service disciplinary procedures due to the difficulty in defending yourself against allegations .

Why did you just ignore the point about knowing the who the complainants are? Or that the procedures here were agreed by the Scottish govt, not the civil service last year?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Why did you just ignore the point about knowing the who the complainants are? Or that the procedures here were agreed by the Scottish govt, not the civil service last year?

Because I don't see it as relevant to the issue of the similarities in the complaint about lack of confidentiality and lack of justice for those accused of sexual misconduct in disciplinary procedures, whether carried out by government or civil service, whether Scottish or British, and how the tarnishing of reputations could be for political gain.

That there might be differences in the detail of the two cases doesn't negate the similarities about the bigger principles being complained about.

[Robbie]

Why? That sounds rather cruel to me. Do we not have it within our power to reserve judgement and treat others as we ourselves would like to be treated, rather than thinking it is somehow OK that because you are in the public domain you are "fair game".

I don't think it's right Trent, on the contrary, it's appalling and fills me with something akin to despair.

Just saw Mr Salmond on the news & he came across very well indeed.