Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations

[Nearly Sane]

Because I don't see it as relevant to the issue of the similarities in the complaint about lack of confidentiality and lack of justice for those accused of sexual misconduct in disciplinary procedures, whether carried out by government or civil service, whether Scottish or British, and how the tarnishing of reputations could be for political gain.

That there might be differences in the detail of the two cases doesn't negate the similarities about the bigger principles being complained about.

That's not true because you quoted Craig talking about not knowing who the complainants were in a post talking about similarities. Up till now this has been entirely confidential so that's just wrong . That there might be similarities between the two cases tells you nothing about whether the differences are insignificant about claims that the motivation.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That's not true because you quoted Craig talking about not knowing who the complainants were in a post talking about similarities. Up till now this has been entirely confidential so that's just wrong . That there might be similarities between the two cases tells you nothing about whether the differences are insignificant about claims that the motivation.

Incorrect. I quoted the whole paragraph - why are you focusing on the detail about not knowing who the complainant was and ignoring the much bigger similarities about allegations of a flawed, unjust disciplinary procedure that did not keep the sexual misconduct allegations against Salmond and Craig Murray confidential and has as a result smeared their reputation. Murray alleges that the smears are for political reasons. That could be true or it could just be incompetence. Either scenario is plausible. 

[Robbie]

I'm working this morning, just about to leave. Someone coming to see me about 0810 (I work locally, ten minute drive if I'm lucky). Just wanted to say last night I dreamed about Alex Salmond, woke up once - and I'm a heavy sleeper, difficult to wake - had drink of water and returned to bed. Dreamed about him again! Can't remember the details but he was crying and so was I. His quite elderly wife was in the background and she too was piping her eye.

Poor bloke. So now I'm biased. Well I always do try to think the best of people until proved otherwise. Not looked at any news this morning and dreading doing so.

[Roses]

I'm working this morning, just about to leave. Someone coming to see me about 0810 (I work locally, ten minute drive if I'm lucky). Just wanted to say last night I dreamed about Alex Salmond, woke up once - and I'm a heavy sleeper, difficult to wake - had drink of water and returned to bed. Dreamed about him again! Can't remember the details but he was crying and so was I. His quite elderly wife was in the background and she too was piping her eye.

Poor bloke. So now I'm biased. Well I always do try to think the best of people until proved otherwise. Not looked at any news this morning and dreading doing so.

Blimey what a nightmare!

[Anchorman]

Interesting commentary from Craig Murray, who went through a similar judicial procedure to the one Alec Salmond is now undergoing. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/when-they-decide-to-get-you/

[Robbie]

Thanks for that Anchor. I haven't read any more news & don't intend to. I honestly want Salmond to be innocent of these charges but nothing surprises me. People are innocent until proven guilty though and I don't intend to dwell.

LR - not really a nightmare but one of those dreams that make you feel confused and uneasy on waking. It was interesting at the time. Got over it though and carried on as normal. I feel so sorry for A Salmond's wife, poor soul.

[Udayana]

It is inappropriate and, given the lack of facts, impossible to discuss Salmod's guilt or innocence of any allegations (if they exist).

What we could discuss is whether the complaint and disciplinary processes are fair and reasonable or resistant to abuse - that is, if they were actually accessible in the public domain! 

[Nearly Sane]

Good piece by Dani Garavelli


https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/dani-garavelli-why-should-salmond-be-treated-any-differently-1-4789829

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It is inappropriate and, given the lack of facts, impossible to discuss Salmod's guilt or innocence of any allegations (if they exist).

What we could discuss is whether the complaint and disciplinary processes are fair and reasonable or resistant to abuse - that is, if they were actually accessible in the public domain!

True - I don't have a lot of confidence in the system/ process. There has been a lot of evidence recently that the process for investigating offences, including sexual offences, is flawed e.g. lack of disclosure of evidence to the defence team in a timely manner. Not sure what has been done to improve things or introduce safeguards.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/dec/22/liam-allan-and-isaac-itiary-trial-collapses-should-lead-to-much-needed-reform

[Nearly Sane]

True - I don't have a lot of confidence in the system/ process. There has been a lot of evidence recently that the process for investigating offences, including sexual offences, is flawed e.g. lack of disclosure of evidence to the defence team in a timely manner. Not sure what has been done to improve things or introduce safeguards.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/dec/22/liam-allan-and-isaac-itiary-trial-collapses-should-lead-to-much-needed-reform

This doesn't relate to the civil service investigation, which is as part of the case Salmond is arguing new, and is about a criminal case in a different legal system. Now that doesn't mean that the process either in the civil service investigation or any possible crimimal investigation  aren't flawed but the citation is irrelevant .

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

This doesn't relate to the civil service investigation, which is as part of the case Salmond is arguing new, and is about a criminal case in a different legal system. Now that doesn't mean that the process either in the civil service investigation or any possible crimimal investigation  aren't flawed but the citation is irrelevant .

It's not irrelevant as one of the issues in the civil service disciplinary process is that there is a lack of disclosure of evidence in a timely fashion to help prepare a defence against the allegations. This together with the lack of confidentiality seems to be major flaws in any process that seeks to achieve a just outcome. 

[Nearly Sane]

It's not irrelevant as one of the issues in the civil service disciplinary process is that there is a lack of disclosure of evidence in a timely fashion to help prepare a defence against the allegations. This together with the lack of confidentiality seems to be major flaws in any process that seeks to achieve a just outcome.

And a criminal prosecution in a different legislative area is irrelevant to all of that.

[Rhiannon]

Crowdfunding his legal fees...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45350594

[Nearly Sane]

Crowdfunding his legal fees...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45350594

Yep and resigned from the party. A number of my friends who are members of the SNP feel very uncomfortable about the crowdfunding. That said, I think some of the rhetoric from other parties is problematic

[Rhiannon]

Yep and resigned from the party. A number of my friends who are members of the SNP feel very uncomfortable about the crowdfunding. That said, I think some of the rhetoric from other parties is problematic

Agree with this.

The crowdfunding really isn’t good though.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree with this.

The crowdfunding really isn’t good though.

Yes, even though it's for the judicial review of the complaints process, it is unavoidable that it feels like an attempt to silence. The whole set of events is indicative of our various prejudices.

[Anchorman]

I note the Tory who replaced Salmond as MP for Banff and Buchan is still beating his gums out...trying to wring political capital by accusing Sturgeon of being biased in not suspending Salmond (dspite the fact that there was no legal justification for doing so), and being a coward  in waiting for him to jump himself. Yes, the crowdfunding is tawdry. I'm not an SNP member, though I support their primasry aim - but people should note that SNP kicked Salmond out once before...and that resulted in his return and SNP achieving power in Holyrood. If he is cleared of these accusations, I would never dare write him off as a loose cannon in Scots politics.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And a criminal prosecution in a different legislative area is irrelevant to all of that.

Clearly to you it’s irrelevant. I explained why it’s relevant from my perspective and am happy to do so again.

It isn’t about the legislative area these cases are in but it is about whether any process involving judging someone for alleged sexual misconduct can be fair if they are not given sufficient information about the allegations against them in a timely manner to prepare a defence and if there is a lack of confidentiality before the proceedings, which means their reputation is tarnished before there has been a judgement made.

This principle applies to criminal cases as well as disciplinary cases, even more so if there are a lack of witnesses. I don’t know if there are any witnesses in this case, but if there aren’t and it is another case of ‘his word against hers’, then it is in the interests of natural justice and therefore in the interests of everyone that  the process is scrutinised to see if it was fair or if changes to the process need to be made to make it fairer.

[Nearly Sane]

Clearly to you it’s irrelevant. I explained why it’s relevant from my perspective and am happy to do so again.

It isn’t about the legislative area these cases are in but it is about whether any process involving judging someone for alleged sexual misconduct can be fair if they are not given sufficient information about the allegations against them in a timely manner to prepare a defence and if there is a lack of confidentiality before the proceedings, which means their reputation is tarnished before there has been a judgement made.

This principle applies to criminal cases as well as disciplinary cases, even more so if there are a lack of witnesses. I don’t know if there are any witnesses in this case, but if there aren’t and it is another case of ‘his word against hers’, then it is in the interests of natural justice and therefore in the interests of everyone that  the process is scrutinised to see if it was fair or if changes to the process need to be made to make it fairer.

Which is still irrelevant to what actually happened in this case as it's not a criminal procedure, and it's a  different legislative area. It tells you nothing about what happened here. It's not a statement on workplace investigations.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Crowdfunding his legal fees...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45350594

Seems ok to me - I tend to think it’s unfair and against the principles of justice if people can’t defend allegations against them due to a lack of money, whether it is allegations of sexual misconduct or if they want to bring defamation proceedings against an accuser. It seems fair that allegations  should have the weight of evidence behind them if a process seeks to uphold the principle “innocent until proven guilty.”

It’s unfortunate for the accused that as soon as an allegation is made they face suspension. As Salmond said  "For my part I have always thought it a very poor idea to suspend any party member on the basis of complaints and allegations. Innocent until proven guilty is central to our concept of justice."

[Nearly Sane]

Seems ok to me - I tend to think it’s unfair and against the principles of justice if people can’t defend allegations against them due to a lack of money, whether it is allegations of sexual misconduct or if they want to bring defamation proceedings against an accuser. It seems fair that allegations  should have the weight of evidence behind them if a process seeks to uphold the principle “innocent until proven guilty.”

It’s unfortunate for the accused that as soon as an allegation is made they face suspension. As Salmond said  "For my part I have always thought it a very poor idea to suspend any party member on the basis of complaints and allegations. Innocent until proven guilty is central to our concept of justice."

Salmond can afford though. And he is suing the govt here, it's not a question of innocent till proven guilty.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Which is still irrelevant to what actually happened in this case as it's not a criminal procedure, and it's a  different legislative area. It tells you nothing about what happened here. It's not a statement on workplace investigations.

It may be irrelevant to you but clearly I think it is relevant and I explained why I think it doesn’t matter if it is in a different legislative area as there is a principle common to the different areas in terms of fairness of the process.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Salmond can afford though. And he is suing the govt here, it's not a question of innocent till proven guilty.

Leaving aside your unevidenced statement about Salmond’s current and future cashflow commitments, why should he have to “afford” a judicial review of a process if the government has applied it incorrectly against him as he claims? The government has more resources than he does, and they got those resources from the public, amongst other things.

[Nearly Sane]

It may be irrelevant to you but clearly I think it is relevant and I explained why I think it doesn’t matter if it is in a different legislative area as there is a principle common to the different areas in terms of fairness of the process.

No, it's not irrelevant 'to me'. It's just irrelevant. To take a simple part of your comments, in the case of a workplace investigation there isn't a question of a 'defence being prepared'. 

[Nearly Sane]

Leaving aside your unevidenced statement about Salmond’s current and future cashflow commitments, why should he have to “afford” a judicial review of a process if the government has applied it incorrectly against him as he claims? The government has more resources than he does, and they got those resources from the public, amongst other things.

Salmond has made clear that he can afford it but the crowdfund is set up to allowpeople  who have expressed a desire to support him to do so.

Are you suggesting that every member of the electorate should be given unlimited legal aid to sue the govt in all circumstances.?

Presumably you have accepted that your point about innocent till proven guilty here was irrelevant?