Author Topic: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations  (Read 52431 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #200 on: September 02, 2018, 07:35:47 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/02/salmond-crowdfunding-could-put-off-victims-say-campaigners
Yes this worried me.

I've also been thinking about yours comments earlier that, had it been Cameron rather than Salmond, that he wouldn't have been able to raise funds by crowdfunding (although Corbyn might). You are right, but I think this is just one of a range of tactics that those with power and influence might use to tip the scales in their direction, which deliberately or otherwise, will deter women from coming forward or from continuing to pursue claims of abuse. So Cameron (note please again this is totally hypothetical example) would be unlikely to resort to crowdfunding to demonstrate his power and influence, rather he would likely resort to his astonishingly powerful network of 'chums'.

Others would simply rely on wealth, effectively to outspend accusers who simply don't have the resources. Others again will use their influence (as we saw in Weinstein pre-MeToo) and power to freeze out accusers from their careers.

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #201 on: September 02, 2018, 08:21:09 PM »
I really hate how we, as a society, obsess over random comments on the Internet. There are bound to be haters vomiting bile on social media in sexual misconduct cases. They probably represent a pretty small minority of people but they get limelight they do not deserve.

I think people should be counseling the accusers in such cases to regard the anonymous Twitterati as insignificant pond scum to be ignored.

Read some of these comments.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-resigns-from-snp/

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #202 on: September 02, 2018, 08:41:37 PM »
I really hate how we, as a society, obsess over random comments on the Internet. There are bound to be haters vomiting bile on social media in sexual misconduct cases. They probably represent a pretty small minority of people but they get limelight they do not deserve.

I think people should be counseling the accusers in such cases to regard the anonymous Twitterati as insignificant pond scum to be ignored.
That's all well and fine to say in the abstract. But if you are an ordinary woman caught up in this you might feel very different - it's all very well to say 'hey just ignore it, it's only twitter-trolling', but if it were you and you had no experience of this kind of thing you might be genuinely concerned that maybe just one of those making the comments might just put a brick through your window if your anonymity were compromised. I can see very easily how this would deter others from coming forward, or those already having made accusation from dropping them.

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #203 on: September 02, 2018, 08:57:08 PM »
That's all well and fine to say in the abstract. But if you are an ordinary woman caught up in this you might feel very different - it's all very well to say 'hey just ignore it, it's only twitter-trolling', but if it were you and you had no experience of this kind of thing you might be genuinely concerned that maybe just one of those making the comments might just put a brick through your window if your anonymity were compromised. I can see very easily how this would deter others from coming forward, or those already having made accusation from dropping them.

The amount of money raised alone sends the message that victims won't be believed, without anything else.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #204 on: September 02, 2018, 09:04:48 PM »
Read some of these comments.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-resigns-from-snp/
I read them but can't see what the problem is.

Lots of comments about it being something whipped up by the media because they are against an independent Scotland or an Establishment set-up and a couple of comments that the women who made the allegations are being used as pawns. Lots of comments about it being unfair that it was leaked. For example:

"Honestly, the anti-independence people raging and asking why give money for a rich man’s legal costs: it is not about the money, it is a sign of support, respect and principle.
I am not in the least surprised that the target was reached within 2.5 hours. Scots are generally known for their abhorrence of unfair treatment and this man has been pilloried before he has even been charged with anything. If this does not go to court, he will carry this stigma for the rest of his life.
What a nightmare for a respected statesman. I feel sick to my stomach that there are so many bitter, twisted people in my beloved country."
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #205 on: September 02, 2018, 09:09:27 PM »
The amount of money raised alone sends the message that victims won't be believed, without anything else.
Not sure I agree that it means that they wont be believed by the general public or in a court. Why it is somewhat chilling is the notion that Salmond can effectively snap his finger and mobilise thousands of supporters, who are, let's face it talking Salmond's side against theirs. All it takes is one nutter in those thousands, and a compromise to anonymity and who knows what might happen. Of course it probably wont but I fully understand why the women would fear the possibility.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #206 on: September 02, 2018, 09:12:32 PM »
That's all well and fine to say in the abstract. But if you are an ordinary woman caught up in this you might feel very different - it's all very well to say 'hey just ignore it, it's only twitter-trolling', but if it were you and you had no experience of this kind of thing you might be genuinely concerned that maybe just one of those making the comments might just put a brick through your window if your anonymity were compromised. I can see very easily how this would deter others from coming forward, or those already having made accusation from dropping them.
IMO a fair process takes priority over the feelings of any individual.

Once it was leaked to the press and the accusations were out there in the public domain, there were undoubtedly lots of negative comments written against Salmond. Not surprising he needed to redress the balance by getting publicity for positive comments about him in the public domain. Crowdfunding his legal fees for the judicial review seems a fair move in the circumstances.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #207 on: September 02, 2018, 09:18:47 PM »
The amount of money raised alone sends the message that victims won't be believed, without anything else.
That has always been the situation though - there is no automatic right to be believed. Without direct knowledge of the incident the situation for most of us is that either there is evidence that points to guilt or a lack of evidence, which points to innocence. And until that evidence is evaluated and a decision reached by some kind of fair, independent process, Salmond remains innocent until proven guilty. The crowdfunding does not change the "innocent until proven guilty" principle - it just redresses the balance of the negative comments against Salmond when the story got leaked.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #208 on: September 03, 2018, 07:49:40 AM »
IMO a fair process takes priority over the feelings of any individual.
I don't disagree about the need for a fair process, but I'm not talking about people's feelings. I'm talking about an atmosphere that prevents women from coming forward in the first place, or drop allegations or refuse to continue to be involved in further investigations etc because they fear the consequences. If that happens how on earth is there a fair process.

It is easy to talk about fair process and indeed relatively easy to provide fair process under circumstances where the accused and accuser are similar in their levels of power and influence. Problems occur when the accused has very little power and influence and the accused is exceptional powerful and influential (or indeed vice versa). That inherent inbalance means the process starts off being unbalanced and therefore unfair, unless other things are put in place to rebalance that unfairness. And, indeed, that is one of the reasons for the anonymity etc in these types of cases - to try to rebalance the system. But once that anonymity is broken, or a woman fears it will be broken, then that rebalancing is lost.

It takes an exceptionally strong character in an ordinary member of the public (or just someone lacking power and influence) to go up against a hugely powerful and influential person without those rebalancing factors, knowing that your opponent can readily mobilise support and influence that you can only dream of.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 07:53:47 AM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #209 on: September 03, 2018, 09:34:07 AM »
I wouldn’t want an atmosphere where people feel it’s easy to make allegations without worrying about the consequences- I don’t trust people to be fair. That’s why a fair process is important. So it is important that there is evidence to support the allegations as well as opportunity and timely information about the allegations available to the accused to provide a defence to the allegations.

I agree that anonymity is important. Once Salmond lost his anonymity and faced comments presuming his guilt and if his complaint that the investigation process was unfair is upheld by the judicial review, then it was unfairly prejudicial against the accused, regardless of his power and influence.

I have no interest in supporting a system if it is unjust and presumably there is little interest in supporting an abuse of power to prevent an abuse of power?

I assume powerful people have feelings too and it’s not just their lives that are affected by allegations leaked to the Press but also the lives of family members, which could also include women, children, the elderly. Not seeing why the concern for justice should not include them too.

I would think the fairest option is anonymity for the accusers and the accused. Once one side loses their anonymity and faces negative comments presuming their guilt I think it’s fair for the person who has lost their anonymity to try to repair the unfair damage by getting positive public comments presuming their innocence. This might also help discourage people from making false accusations against powerful people, not that I am suggesting that that is what has happened here. Of course we have to wait for the outcome of investigations and the judicial review and the evaluation of evidence before forming an opinion on what the truth might be.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 09:38:43 AM by Gabriella »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #210 on: September 03, 2018, 11:08:44 AM »
I think that's right - and there is a further issue. I think in some cases the men involved don't feel that what they did needed clear consent - meaning that they felt that a little squeeze of a bottom or a deliberate rub against a breast was just what happens and not something requiring consent. That is of course wrong, but I think there are plenty of examples where the man knows darned well that the women hadn't consented, but he didn't think that consent was necessary.
Missed this. Yes I agree some men and women  may well have become more educated recently on the importance of obtaining consent before even touching someone. The number of times I have seen a woman touch a man’s leg or shoulder or back or playfully pushing or punching them while talking to them, without asking permission first, but just assuming they have consent. The other day I witnessed a man playfully pretend to tweak his landlord’s (another man’s) nipple and they weren’t friends - they were in the middle of a discussion about the rental property they were standing in  - an office. The person committing the “assault” seemed quite keen to hug people he barely knew as well.

In that sense I quite like people who recognise that people have their personal space and not to risk intruding by trying to initiate physical contact. It’s safer that way for all concerned as there is less likelihood of intentions being misinterpreted.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #211 on: September 03, 2018, 11:18:50 AM »
I wouldn’t want an atmosphere where people feel it’s easy to make allegations without worrying about the consequences
Nor would I want an atmosphere where people feel they cannot make legitimate accusations for fear of the consequences - and in the case of women and sexual harassment that has been the situation over decades. Sure the MeToo agenda has helped level the playing field somewhat, but I'm not convinced it is level yet, let alone tipped in favour of the victims, particularly where the accused are powerful and influential. It think we both agree that a fair process is important - we just differ in our opinions on which way the process is unbalanced at present.

I agree that anonymity is important. Once Salmond lost his anonymity and faced comments presuming his guilt ...
The inference being that once the allegations were made public that all comments presumed guilt. That isn't the case - sure there may have been some comments presuming guilt and others merely having a go at someone they don't like. But that is balanced by plenty of comments (see the wingsoverscotland link) opining that they cannot believe he is guilty, implying some great conspiracy and generally being supportive of Salmond. Plus there are plenty of others more measured - effectively (and quite rightly) reserving judgement until the due process is complete.

I assume powerful people have feelings too ...
Of course they do, but in many cases they will be much better prepared for a media storm - in this case Salmond has been in the public eye for decades, he is well used to dealing with the kind of media storm raging at present, and may indeed have a raft of public relations support to help. For an ordinary member of the public this will be completely new territory for them and they may be completely unprepared and ill-equipped to deal with what it to come if anonymity is compromised. Remember the case of the nurse you fell for a press hoax when one of William/Kate's kids were born. 

I would think the fairest option is anonymity for the accusers and the accused.
But that doesn't level the playing field when one of the parties is powerful and influential. Sure were anonymity to have been maintained for Salmond a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't have been possible, but remember Salmond probably has be greatest network of contacts with exceptional influence in Scotland. Even with anonymity he has the opportunity to thumb through his address book, have a few conversations/meetings with others with power and influence able to pull strings if required. The accused have none of that.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #212 on: September 03, 2018, 11:47:19 AM »
Nor would I want an atmosphere where people feel they cannot make legitimate accusations for fear of the consequences - and in the case of women and sexual harassment that has been the situation over decades. Sure the MeToo agenda has helped level the playing field somewhat, but I'm not convinced it is level yet, let alone tipped in favour of the victims, particularly where the accused are powerful and influential. It think we both agree that a fair process is important - we just differ in our opinions on which way the process is unbalanced at present.
Agreed. I think making the accusations public tipped the balance too much against the accused in a system that is based on innocent until proven guilty.
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The inference being that once the allegations were made public that all comments presumed guilt.
Not all comments but certainly enough to make it very detrimental to a person's reputation, and I don't think that is a price that influential, powerful people should have to pay until a judgement through a fair process has been reached.

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That isn't the case - sure there may have been some comments presuming guilt and others merely having a go at someone they don't like. But that is balanced by plenty of comments (see the wingsoverscotland link) opining that they cannot believe he is guilty, implying some great conspiracy and generally being supportive of Salmond. Plus there are plenty of others more measured - effectively (and quite rightly) reserving judgement until the due process is complete.
That's why I support the crowdfunding - I doubt there would have been as good an opportunity to make or publicise the supportive comments without the crowdfunding page where ordinary people could balance the negativity from a very powerful media. 
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Of course they do, but in many cases they will be much better prepared for a media storm - in this case Salmond has been in the public eye for decades, he is well used to dealing with the kind of media storm raging at present, and may indeed have a raft of public relations support to help. For an ordinary member of the public this will be completely new territory for them and they may be completely unprepared and ill-equipped to deal with what it to come if anonymity is compromised. Remember the case of the nurse you fell for a press hoax when one of William/Kate's kids were born.
I agree that a public figure will be more prepared to deal with sexual misconduct allegations compared to an ordinary member of the public. And that's why I made the point about the feelings of the accused's family, who are ordinary members of the public. I don't see this as the price powerful public figures should just be expected to pay if they become successful in their field of work.

I think it is entirely reasonable for powerful people to fight back against a powerful media or lobby or against what they think is an unfair investigation process through tactics such as crowdfunding pages. It's unfortunate that this may discourage victims from reporting allegations, but I don't blame Salmond as I think it's a reasonable tactic given the circumstances and it would not need to be employed if anonymity had been maintained. He has a right to defend himself.

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But that doesn't level the playing field when one of the parties is powerful and influential. Sure were anonymity to have been maintained for Salmond a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't have been possible, but remember Salmond probably has be greatest network of contacts with exceptional influence in Scotland. Even with anonymity he has the opportunity to thumb through his address book, have a few conversations/meetings with others with power and influence able to pull strings if required. The accused have none of that.
I guess we shall see how much influence he has once the judicial review determines whether, despite all this influence, he was the victim of an abuse of power during the investigation process.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #213 on: September 03, 2018, 12:08:28 PM »
That's why I support the crowdfunding - I doubt there would have been as good an opportunity to make or publicise the supportive comments without the crowdfunding page where ordinary people could balance the negativity from a very powerful media.
Salmond was all over the media prior to launching his Crowdfunding page. Due to his prominence he was able to get media airtime etc that most people wouldn't be able to achieve. And of course with that media airtime he strongly denied the claims and also made his points about the unfairness of the system.

Sure the Crowdfunding page provided an additional opportunity to drum up support, but he had already used a range of other media outlets to put his case and drum up support, not least twitter. Don't forget that the wingoverscotland page with hundreds of supporting comments, Rhiannon linked to, is completely different to the crowdfunding page. Plus he posted several statements on twitter, again generating supporting comments straight after the accusations went public and days before the crowdfunding was launched.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #214 on: September 03, 2018, 01:10:06 PM »
Salmond was all over the media prior to launching his Crowdfunding page. Due to his prominence he was able to get media airtime etc that most people wouldn't be able to achieve. And of course with that media airtime he strongly denied the claims and also made his points about the unfairness of the system.

Sure the Crowdfunding page provided an additional opportunity to drum up support, but he had already used a range of other media outlets to put his case and drum up support, not least twitter. Don't forget that the wingoverscotland page with hundreds of supporting comments, Rhiannon linked to, is completely different to the crowdfunding page. Plus he posted several statements on twitter, again generating supporting comments straight after the accusations went public and days before the crowdfunding was launched.
I agree Salmond was in the media denying the allegations but once the allegations are repeated by the media, and the more times they are repeated, the tendency is for them to be in many people’s minds as more and more believable on the “no smoke without fire” basis. So it needed something more, such as donating to a crowdfunding page, to send a message that the media attempts to discredit Salmond or publicise the allegations as a juicy story weren't going to have as negative an impact as expected. I think it’s a clever tactic to employ and more effective than just the denials.

The WingsoverScotland comments page referenced the crowdfunding page, with people saying they donated as a way of showing support for fairness rather than because they thought Salmond needed the money. Many people on there are waiting for some evidence to be produced, and until then Salmond is innocent so entitled to defend himself as effectively as he can against media stories.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #215 on: September 03, 2018, 01:31:19 PM »
I agree Salmond was in the media denying the allegations but once the allegations are repeated by the media, and the more times they are repeated, the tendency is for them to be in many people’s minds as more and more believable on the “no smoke without fire” basis. So it needed something more, such as donating to a crowdfunding page, to send a message that the media attempts to discredit Salmond or publicise the allegations as a juicy story weren't going to have as negative an impact as expected. I think it’s a clever tactic to employ and more effective than just the denials.

The WingsoverScotland comments page referenced the crowdfunding page, with people saying they donated as a way of showing support for fairness rather than because they thought Salmond needed the money. Many people on there are waiting for some evidence to be produced, and until then Salmond is innocent so entitled to defend himself as effectively as he can against media stories.
I don't agree. Actually I think most of the coverage in the first few days was rather muted and carefully neutral, as the media have learned from previous examples with high profile figures where the allegations have come to nought. I certainly didn't feel any 'no smoke without fire' or presumption of guilt.

Actually the thing that has changed that is the crowdfunding approach - that has received extremely strong criticism across all sorts or parts of the media and beyond. Just look at the raft of negative publicity linked to his crowdfunding over the weekend. So if anything Salmond has rather shot himself in the foot, turning a broadly cautious and 'let's not rush to judgement' approach to one where the media and the public have turned against him due to his actions in using his power and influence to raise money via crowdfunding for his defence. I still don't see people rushing to a presumption of guilt, but they don't like his tactics one little bit.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 01:48:03 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #216 on: September 03, 2018, 03:57:51 PM »
I don't agree. Actually I think most of the coverage in the first few days was rather muted and carefully neutral, as the media have learned from previous examples with high profile figures where the allegations have come to nought. I certainly didn't feel any 'no smoke without fire' or presumption of guilt.

Actually the thing that has changed that is the crowdfunding approach - that has received extremely strong criticism across all sorts or parts of the media and beyond. Just look at the raft of negative publicity linked to his crowdfunding over the weekend. So if anything Salmond has rather shot himself in the foot, turning a broadly cautious and 'let's not rush to judgement' approach to one where the media and the public have turned against him due to his actions in using his power and influence to raise money via crowdfunding for his defence. I still don't see people rushing to a presumption of guilt, but they don't like his tactics one little bit.
My impression was that once the story was leaked to the Press there were many calls for Salmond's suspension from the SNP publicised by the media before the crowdfunding page appeared. Being suspended makes a person look guilty. There were also references to "sex pest" allegations. He then resigned from the SNP, and there were comments from some people asking why he was resigning if he was innocent.

The crowdfunding page gave the opportunity for people who wanted evidence of his guilt to show their support for a fair investigation and a presumption of his innocence until the evidence is produced. So clearly while some of the public turned against him, some did not.
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jeremyp

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #217 on: September 03, 2018, 08:19:46 PM »
Read some of these comments.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-resigns-from-snp/
Why?

Seriously, they are just random people on the internet. Why should I give them a moment’s thought?
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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #218 on: September 03, 2018, 08:24:51 PM »
That's all well and fine to say in the abstract. But if you are an ordinary woman caught up in this you might feel very different - it's all very well to say 'hey just ignore it, it's only twitter-trolling', but if it were you and you had no experience of this kind of thing you might be genuinely concerned that maybe just one of those making the comments might just put a brick through your window if your anonymity were compromised. I can see very easily how this would deter others from coming forward, or those already having made accusation from dropping them.
You’ve ignored the second part of my post about the counseling.

Also, as a general rule, we need to spread the meme that internet comments can be really nasty, but they are not worth the effort of getting upset about. If one person in a thousand is an arsehole, it can look quite bad on Twitter, but it is still a very small number of people.
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Robbie

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #219 on: September 03, 2018, 08:28:36 PM »
I read the wingsoverscotland comments. So the man has supporters, so what? He also has detractors, probably more.

We don't know what happened, we were not there. Hopefully the truth will out, sooner the better but unfortunately these things tend to take time.
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jeremyp

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #220 on: September 03, 2018, 08:33:20 PM »
The amount of money raised alone sends the message that victims won't be believed, without anything else.
What do you propose to do about it? Are you going to try to stop people accused of sexual assault from raising funds for their defence?
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jeremyp

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #221 on: September 03, 2018, 08:41:19 PM »
I read the wingsoverscotland comments. So the man has supporters, so what? He also has detractors, probably more.

We don't know what happened, we were not there. Hopefully the truth will out, sooner the better but unfortunately these things tend to take time.
If he has a thousand supporters all commenting on that article, that’s still out of about five million people in Scotland. You can’t stop Salmond from crowdfunding his legal challenge. You can’tr Stop his supporters from commenting on stories and you can’t make his detractors also comment if they don’t want to. All you can do, as far as I know, is educate people that random comments on the Internet mean fuck all.
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Robbie

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #222 on: September 03, 2018, 08:48:40 PM »
I wouldn't stop them, that was not my point. I agree internet comments mean nothing. Do our comments on this thread count as internet comments? Apart from on here I've made no comments nor discussed it with anyone.

Nothing wrong with the crowdfunding imo.
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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #223 on: September 03, 2018, 09:01:57 PM »
I wouldn't stop them, that was not my point. I agree internet comments mean nothing. Do our comments on this thread count as internet comments? Apart from on here I've made no comments nor discussed it with anyone.
There you are. You responded to an internet comment in a combative way in spite of the fact that the commenter (me) was actually agreeing more or less with what you wrote. If you were offended, you’ll just brush it off and just put it down to my lack of skills at expressing myself clearly.

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Nothing wrong with the crowdfunding imo.
I don’t actually agree with that. I think - given that Salmond has admitted he didn’t need to crowdfund the legal action - that it was quite a dickish move. Given the current climate, I think it will have a detrimental effect on sexual assault victims coming forward but what can we do about it? The only answer is to change the current climate so people do not get intimidated by arseholes on the Internet - at least that is my opinion.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #224 on: September 03, 2018, 09:06:32 PM »
There you are. You responded to an internet comment in a combative way in spite of the fact that the commenter (me) was actually agreeing more or less with what you wrote. If you were offended, you’ll just brush it off and just put it down to my lack of skills at expressing myself clearly.
I think there is a world of difference between how we might respond to each other's comments on this MB and how a person accusing one of the most powerful and influential figures in Scotland of sexual harassment might feel about comments made in support of that powerful and influential person, particularly if you aren't 100% confident that your anonymity can be assured.