Author Topic: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations  (Read 52320 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #525 on: January 11, 2021, 06:40:03 PM »
You just seem to continually show your ignorance about what is happening. Let's go back to your idea that the Scottish Govt was scared of holding a rerun because of the politics which showed your ignorance of the parliamentary inquiry. You just don't seem to have much knowledge of Scottish politics
Oh - here we go again - the old 'you don't understand about scottish politics'. Straw man.

This is about work based allegations of sexual harassment - and with the alleged perpetrator being a person of significant power and influence. The key issues are similar to many other 'me-too' movement cases throughout the world. This isn't a peculiarly scottish issue - it is an issue of power and influence, same as many other cases.

It could just as easily have been a case against powerful figure in the media, or in sport, or in a religious organisation or in any other walk of life. And the issues would be the same in many other countries.

The notion that you cannot understand the power dynamics at play here without somehow understanding scottish politics is both non-sense and rather insulting.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #526 on: January 11, 2021, 06:43:35 PM »
Let's go back to your idea that the Scottish Govt was scared of holding a rerun because of the politics which showed your ignorance of the parliamentary inquiry.
On the contrary - I think the scottish government is terrified of having to either uphold or reject the complaints against Salmond - they'd prefer a situation where there is never a decision either for or against him. A 'kick the ball into the longest of long grass' is the very best option. But, of course, Salmond is such an adept political operator that he has managed to turn himself from alleged perpetrator to victim - he certainly is a class act as a political operator, no doubt about that.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #527 on: January 11, 2021, 06:59:16 PM »
Oh - here we go again - the old 'you don't understand about scottish politics'. Straw man.

This is about work based allegations of sexual harassment - and with the alleged perpetrator being a person of significant power and influence. The key issues are similar to many other 'me-too' movement cases throughout the world. This isn't a peculiarly scottish issue - it is an issue of power and influence, same as many other cases.

It could just as easily have been a case against powerful figure in the media, or in sport, or in a religious organisation or in any other walk of life. And the issues would be the same in many other countries.

The notion that you cannot understand the power dynamics at play here without somehow understanding scottish politics is both non-sense and rather insulting.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2273819/sun4mon-the-various-inquiries-into-the-botched-probe-into-alex-salmonds-conduct-promise-yet-more-political-drama/

There seem to be 3 on-going inquiries. How is that similar to a powerful figure in media or in sport? Why do you think the Scottish government has taken the decision not to re-run the investigation? Is it because political procedures prevent that from happening or because of SNP self-interest or Sturgeon's self-interest? Any ideas?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #528 on: January 11, 2021, 07:11:41 PM »
On the contrary - I think the scottish government is terrified of having to either uphold or reject the complaints against Salmond - they'd prefer a situation where there is never a decision either for or against him. A 'kick the ball into the longest of long grass' is the very best option. But, of course, Salmond is such an adept political operator that he has managed to turn himself from alleged perpetrator to victim - he certainly is a class act as a political operator, no doubt about that.
Wow! So you think that the Scottish Govt are scared about what would be an internal process as opposed to an open govt enquiry. Politics is just not your strength.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:18:06 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #529 on: January 11, 2021, 07:59:39 PM »
Wow! So you think that the Scottish Govt are scared about what would be an internal process as opposed to an open govt enquiry. Politics is just not your strength.
But the inquiry is instigated by the scottish parliament not the scottish government (the clue is in the name) so is not under the government's control to decide whether or not to have an inquiry.

The decision to rerun the investigation is a decision for the scottish government, not the parliament. They could have made the decision to do so, they have chosen not to. The notion that the parliament is holding an inquiry isn't relevant to the government's decision to act on the outcome of the judicial review.

I'm sure the government would prefer there to be no inquiries (just as they'd probably have preferred there to be no judicial review) but that isn't in their control. However as I've said before I think having had the inquiry foisted on them by the parliament the silver lining for the government is it can hide behind the inquiry and therefore kick the decision which is in their control, namely to re-run the investigation, into the long grass meaning that they wont have to actually determine whether the complaints are uphold or not upheld.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #530 on: January 11, 2021, 08:11:57 PM »
Is it because political procedures prevent that from happening ...
I don't believe so - perhaps you can provide evidence to demonstrate that the investigation cannot be rerun until the inquiry is concluded. I doubt very much there will be as it would be completely counterintuitive - effectively placing government decision making completely on hold while an inquiry (not of their making) concludes. The equivalent would be to suggest that until the Grenfell inquiry is complete there should be no revision to building regulations on cladding and there should be no work to remove cladding.

or because of SNP self-interest or Sturgeon's self-interest? Any ideas?
I think you are more on the right track here - the scottish government - effectively the SNP and Sturgeon really, really don't want to be forced to make a decision to uphold or not uphold the complaints. While in the initial investigation this seemed sensible as they were on the front foot, they are now so firmly on the backfoot compared to Salmond that either to uphold or not uphold is dynamite. If they uphold then they will feel the full force of Salmond highly successful campaign to appear as the victim. If they don't uphold they will be seen as weak, in hock to the powerful big beast and also to have failed women who took a very brave decision to come forward and complain about Salmond.

So much better to have his acquitted by someone else (the criminal court), where there was little likelihood of conviction as it is a one person's word against another person's word, consent issue with a beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof. And to simply allow the original reason to vanish under the weight of inquiries, never to return.

And all the time there are the complainants, who when coming forward, quite reasonably expected their complaints to be considered and for a decision to uphold them or not uphold to be made on the balance of probabilities. But that hasn't happened, three years on and I see no reasonable likelihood of it happening any time soon, if at all. What message does that send to someone else thinking of making a work-based complaint of sexual harassment against a very senior colleague - hmmm.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #531 on: January 11, 2021, 11:03:04 PM »
I don't believe so - perhaps you can provide evidence to demonstrate that the investigation cannot be rerun until the inquiry is concluded. I doubt very much there will be as it would be completely counterintuitive - effectively placing government decision making completely on hold while an inquiry (not of their making) concludes. The equivalent would be to suggest that until the Grenfell inquiry is complete there should be no revision to building regulations on cladding and there should be no work to remove cladding.
Once again I think you are wrong. Given that there are 3 inquiries into how the Government conducted itself during the first investigation I think the Government has little credibility to undertake an investigation into the complaints against Salmond without first clearing itself of wrong-doing.

We have an inquiry into whether Sturgeon should resign because she allegedly broke the ministerial code. She is also accused of misleading Parliament because she forgot about mentioning to Parliament that she had a meeting with Geoff Aberdein, Salmond’s former chief of staff, in her office on March 29, 2018 about the sexual misconduct allegations against Salmond.

We have another inquiry into why the Government continued pursuing the same strategy for the investigation that would take them to a judicial review, when they had apparently been given legal advice that they would lose the judicial review, which then resulted in a waste of £512,000 of taxpayer money in legal costs. 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18998773.alex-salmond-accuses-nicola-sturgeon-lying-msps-breaking-ministerial-code/

It s nothing like Grenfell. How can the government be seen to carry out a fair investigation about a sensitive issue such as sexual misconduct, that is based purely on one person's word against another, while the government's credibility in carrying out investigations is shot to pieces? There are now allegations that Sturgeon's chief of staff revealed the name of one of the complainants to Geoff Aberdein, which Sturgeon is denying. Of course if the government thought they could get away with it, they would still carry out the investigation. However, in this instance they can't get away with it because they are up against Salmond, not some Joe Public whose rights they can steamroller over with minimum publicity. Salmond is a public figure so he generates huge publicity and public support - the government were stupid to be this sloppy when going after a public figure.

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I think you are more on the right track here - the scottish government - effectively the SNP and Sturgeon really, really don't want to be forced to make a decision to uphold or not uphold the complaints. While in the initial investigation this seemed sensible as they were on the front foot, they are now so firmly on the backfoot compared to Salmond that either to uphold or not uphold is dynamite. If they uphold then they will feel the full force of Salmond highly successful campaign to appear as the victim. If they don't uphold they will be seen as weak, in hock to the powerful big beast and also to have failed women who took a very brave decision to come forward and complain about Salmond.
Salmond did not just "appear" as the victim - he was the victim of an unfair investigation.

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So much better to have his acquitted by someone else (the criminal court), where there was little likelihood of conviction as it is a one person's word against another person's word, consent issue with a beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof. And to simply allow the original reason to vanish under the weight of inquiries, never to return.
Disagree. The government can't carry out an investigation while they appear to lack credibility.

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And all the time there are the complainants, who when coming forward, quite reasonably expected their complaints to be considered and for a decision to uphold them or not uphold to be made on the balance of probabilities. But that hasn't happened, three years on and I see no reasonable likelihood of it happening any time soon, if at all. What message does that send to someone else thinking of making a work-based complaint of sexual harassment against a very senior colleague - hmmm.
That was always a distinct possibility if you change the rules and then allow retrospective investigations. I am sure the women weren't naïve enough to think the process would not be held up if the government botched the investigation. It's unfortunate if women in general are naive enough to think that complaints will not be robustly defended by the people they are accusing and the sooner they get the message it will not be a walk in the park the better prepared they will be. I am sure if the women were being accused of misconduct they would equally robustly defend themselves against the accusations.

The government had appointed an official, Judith MacKinnon, to conduct an apparently independent investigation even though she had already met and counselled both complainants though MacKinnon denied she had coached them in their complaint. MacKinnon did not deny she had met the two women at the same time as she had been copied into a series of draft versions of the Scottish government’s new ministerial complaints code in November 2017, as had Leslie Evans, the permanent secretary, and MacKinnon’s boss, the Scottish government’s director of people, Nicola Richards. The code made clear that an investigating officer should have had “no prior involvement with any aspect of the matter being raised”.

When this appearance of bias was pointed out to the government by Salmond, the government ignored it, and he had to take it to judicial review.

Therefore it sounds bizarre for you to suggest the government presses on with conducting a new investigation without first establishing whether the government has any credibility in carrying out investigations against Salmond.

The complaints themselves seem to be about conduct that may or may not have been consensual or may or may not have been exaggerated or reinterpreted or conduct that may or may not have been fabrications or misremembered. Given it's one person's word against another it is problematic if the investigation is carried out by the government while there is still the appearance of bias and misleading Parliament hanging over the government's head.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 11:07:14 PM by Violent Gabriella »
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jeremyp

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #532 on: January 12, 2021, 08:51:06 PM »
What should happen is that the investigation should be rerun using a process that doesn't fall foul of challenge by Judicial Review, in other words using being procedurally fair and not tainted by apparent bias - surely you can agree with that?

Not necessarily. They could just retract the findings and leave it at that.

Then there's always the possibility of some intermediate conclusion (I'm speaking generally now, not about this particular case). The court might find that there were breaches of the rules but they weren't serious enough to warrant throwing everything out.
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Nearly Sane

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Gordon

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #536 on: January 27, 2021, 11:16:30 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #537 on: January 28, 2021, 10:18:35 AM »
And Craig Murray's sworn evidence (release approved by Crown Office,  redacted)


https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/01/my-sworn-evidence-on-the-sturgeon-affair/#click=https://t.co/O7nrRh9GAk

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #540 on: February 01, 2021, 02:51:37 PM »
And not clear what the sacking of Joanna Cherry from the SNP front bench is motivated by, though it might be to do with the Salmond case, or GRA reform, or supporting the legal attempts to see if a referendum can be called without UK govt approval, or a combination of them.


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19054750.snp-sack-joanna-cherry-westminster-front-bench-team/

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #542 on: February 01, 2021, 07:29:49 PM »
As far as I can see there are 3 SNP MPs to have no position in this list: Joanna Cherry, Kenny MacAskill and Angus Brendan MacNeil. All of them are seen as being linked to Salmond.


https://www.snp.org/the-real-opposition-meet-your-new-snp-westminster-frontbench-team/
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 07:43:40 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #543 on: February 03, 2021, 08:07:51 PM »
Interesting how thoroughly disliked Alex Salmond is in Scotland

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/pdqzw72qoe/InternalResults_Favourabilitty_210125.pdf

With a net favourability rating of -60, he ranks below well Boris (-54), the Tories (-46), Labour (-24) and Starmer (-5) - and with Sturgeon on +21 there is a 81 point difference in their favourability ratings. Has there ever been such a gaping gap in favourability between two key political figures going head to head with each other.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #544 on: February 03, 2021, 08:15:34 PM »
Interesting how thoroughly disliked Alex Salmond is in Scotland

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/pdqzw72qoe/InternalResults_Favourabilitty_210125.pdf

With a net favourability rating of -60, he ranks below well Boris (-54), the Tories (-46), Labour (-24) and Starmer (-5) - and with Sturgeon on +21 there is a 81 point difference in their favourability ratings. Has there ever been such a gaping gap in favourability between two key political figures going head to head with each other.
Don't know but the challenge to Sturgeon is not Salmond going 'head to head' with her but whether the inquiry shows she lied to the Parliament.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #545 on: February 03, 2021, 08:43:31 PM »
Don't know but the challenge to Sturgeon is not Salmond going 'head to head' with her but whether the inquiry shows she lied to the Parliament.
That is a completely different question - and we are talking here about public opinion, and I'm not sure that the public will take kindly to a person with a +21 favourability rating being taken down by one with a -60 rating.

And of course Salmond has been challenging Sturgeon over this from the first moment he became aware that there were allegations against him.

For those without a dog in the fight it is popcorn time ... except for the fact that there are women who came forward with allegations to their employer who haven't had those allegations properly considered in an employment process which is considered on balance of probabilities. That really is the issue we should be focusing on.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #546 on: February 03, 2021, 09:03:19 PM »
That is a completely different question - and we are talking here about public opinion, and I'm not sure that the public will take kindly to a person with a +21 favourability rating being taken down by one with a -60 rating.

And of course Salmond has been challenging Sturgeon over this from the first moment he became aware that there were allegations against him.

For those without a dog in the fight it is popcorn time ... except for the fact that there are women who came forward with allegations to their employer who haven't had those allegations properly considered in an employment process which is considered on balance of probabilities. That really is the issue we should be focusing on.
It is, indeed, a completely different question. It is also the relevant question as to the impact on Sturgeon as opposed to your naive idea of a 'head to head' 



Your last paragraph seems to imply that we should not be focussing on whether the First Minister lied to Parliament. That just seems badly phrased.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #547 on: February 03, 2021, 09:16:18 PM »
It is, indeed, a completely different question. It is also the relevant question as to the impact on Sturgeon as opposed to your naive idea of a 'head to head'
I think most of the public will see this as a 'head to head' between Sturgeon and Salmond.

So much so that YouGov (you know the guys whose whole business is about public opinion) have just released a poll that specifically compares option about Salmond vs Sturgeon on the inquiry.

Don't be so naive to think this isn't fundamentally Sturgeon vs Salmond.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #548 on: February 03, 2021, 09:31:00 PM »
I think most of the public will see this as a 'head to head' between Sturgeon and Salmond.

So much so that YouGov (you know the guys whose whole business is about public opinion) have just released a poll that specifically compares option about Salmond vs Sturgeon on the inquiry.

Don't be so naive to think this isn't fundamentally Sturgeon vs Salmond.
  Ah look, an ad populum how cute. Salmond can't take on Sturgeon 'head to head' so you and any of the public you want to cite are simply wrong. As already covered what will do damage to Sturgeon is being found to have lied to parliament in which case 68% of the public think she should. There is nothing in that argument that brings Salmond back.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1387084/nicola-sturgeon-news-snp-resign-sturgeon-misled-parliament-claims-alex-salmond-enquiry

As to this being fundamentally about Salmond v Sturgeon, first of all that contradicts what you said we should be 'focussing on' i.e. the women who came forward. Secondly it's enormously simplistic in that there are a number of different issues here. Tge gradualist approach of Sturgeon to independence which is actually Salmind's position as well but those who want to ignore Westminster giving permission for a next referendum are using the split as a flag of convenience. Next, there is a genuine split on GRA reform and in part because of the comments from Joanna Cherry, this too has become a flag of convenience. And the mention of Joanna Cherry adds the split that there are those who see this as much more a case of Cherry v Sturgeon.   
 

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Re: Salmond denies sexual misconduct allegations
« Reply #549 on: February 03, 2021, 10:04:21 PM »
I think most of the public will see this as a 'head to head' between Sturgeon and Salmond.

I don't think the public in Scotland do - the key issue is clear: which is whether of not our FM breached the ministerial code. In terms of wider Scottish politics Salmond is largely an irrelevance now, outwith his support base - his antics on a Russian TV channel saw to that long before any court cases. Joanna Cherry the more likely challenger to Sturgeon.

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So much so that YouGov (you know the guys whose whole business is about public opinion) have just released a poll that specifically compares option about Salmond vs Sturgeon on the inquiry.

Don't be so naive to think this isn't fundamentally Sturgeon vs Salmond.

It isn't about 'Sturgeon vs Salmond' at all - it's just about Sturgeon. Maybe the guys in YouGov aren't spending enough time in Scotland.