9 year old suicide

[Rhiannon]

It’s because we haven’t overcome our animal nature.

Thank god. What would life be without a bit of ‘lust’?

[Shaker]

It’s because we haven’t overcome our animal nature.

Thank god. What would life be without a bit of ‘lust’?

Very much the poorer, in my experience.

[jeremyp]

How can a 9 year old even know that he is gay, let alone declare it to his friends? How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?

OK, let's assume for the moment that he was too young to really know if he was gay or not and that he merely said so to gain attention or something.

How does that make it OK to bully him to the point he commits suicide? Why are you blaming his parents for something done by other people?

[Shaker]

We already know why.

It's one of those things that we don't have to guess at any more, since - conveniently - we have his own words to seal the deal.

Homosexuality is motivated by lust, and is an abnormal condition that merits "treatment."

Some people think that homosexuality isn't a disease and doesn't stand in need of treatment. With these people Sriram "tends to disagree" - therefore he tends to think that it is and it does.

It's all here, and easily searchable anyway.

[jeremyp]

We already know why.

It's one of those things that we don't have to guess at any more, since - conveniently - we have his own words to seal the deal.

Homosexuality is motivated by lust, and is an abnormal condition that merits "treatment."

Even if you believe this, I don't understand why you think it lets the bullies off the hook.

[Shaker]

Even if you believe this, I don't understand why you think it lets the bullies off the hook.

I don't. Sriram ostensibly does, since his OP contained no condemnation of bullying but instead chose to point the finger at the parents for "allowing" their child to identify as gay:

How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?

Sriram is the one who said precisely zero about a child being bullied to the point of suicide and instead wondered why the parents "allowed" their child to identify as gay.

Direct your fire where it's deserved.

[Sriram]

OK, let's assume for the moment that he was too young to really know if he was gay or not and that he merely said so to gain attention or something.

How does that make it OK to bully him to the point he commits suicide? Why are you blaming his parents for something done by other people?

No...what the bullies did is not ok. Who said anything about that?

Its about how the problem started in the first place.  If a child is trying to get attention, as you claim, why would the parents allow him to declare such things in school?  Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?   

Bullies are bullies. Parents cannot be irresponsible!

[Shaker]

No...what the bullies did is not ok. Why said anything about that?

You said nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. You chose to point the finger at the parents of a child dead by suicide instead of the bullies who drove said child to suicide.

Its about how the problem started in the first place.

Homophobic bullying is how the problem of a dead child started in the first place.

Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?

Why wouldn't they?

What's to stop them?

What barriers are in place?

Third time of asking and, I very strongly suspect, third time of cowardly, weaselly, slippery, slimy evasion of answering the question on your part. How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?

Bullies are bullies.

Congratulations on mastering the Law of Identity.

Parents cannot be irresponsible!

Were the parents of Jamel Myles irresponsible?

Were they irresponsible or were they not irresponsible?

If in your opinion they were irresponsible, exactly how were they irresponsible? In what way were they irresponsible?

[jeremyp]

I don't. Sriram ostensibly does, since his OP contained no condemnation of bullying but instead chose to point the finger at the parents for "allowing" their child to identify as gay:

Sriram is the one who said precisely zero about a child being bullied to the point of suicide and instead wondered why the parents "allowed" their child to identify as gay.

Direct your fire where it's deserved.

My apologies. I thought I was responding to Sriram. Your names both begin with S, so it’s your fault that I got confused.

[jeremyp]

No...what the bullies did is not ok. Who said anything about that?

You seem to be blaming the parents for what happened instead of the bullies.

Its about how the problem started in the first place.  If a child is trying to get attention, as you claim

Let’s be completely clear: I do not claim the victim was trying to get attention. I merely hypothesized that as a worst case scenario and then asked if that lets the bullies off the hook. The answer to that question should be no, by the way.

, why would the parents allow him to declare such things in school?  Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?

How could they stop him? In the USA I understand it is not customary for parents to follow their children around all the time at school. 

Bullies are bullies. Parents cannot be irresponsible!

Again, I ask, how could they have stopped him?

[Sriram]

You said nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. You chose to point the finger at the parents of a child dead by suicide instead of the bullies who drove said child to suicide.
Homophobic bullying is how the problem of a dead child started in the first place.
Why wouldn't they?

What's to stop them?

What barriers are in place?

Third time of asking and, I very strongly suspect, third time of cowardly, weaselly, slippery, slimy evasion of answering the question on your part. How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?Congratulations on mastering the Law of Identity.
Were the parents of Jamel Myles irresponsible?

Were they irresponsible or were they not irresponsible?

If in your opinion they were irresponsible, exactly how were they irresponsible? In what way were they irresponsible?

Shaker...Tut...Tut.....you are going to burst a blood vessel if you are not careful.     

I suggest you visit a church and chant some Hail Marys or something. It'll help you calm down. 

Cheers. 

[Sriram]

You seem to be blaming the parents for what happened instead of the bullies.
Let’s be completely clear: I do not claim the victim was trying to get attention. I merely hypothesized that as a worst case scenario and then asked if that lets the bullies off the hook. The answer to that question should be no, by the way.How could they stop him? In the USA I understand it is not customary for parents to follow their children around all the time at school. 
Again, I ask, how could they have stopped him?

I have already explained that. 

It all started because a 9 year old, who is in all probability prepubescent, wanted to declare himself gay. His parents allowed him to do that.

From the report....

*******

"Pierce said her son, who was enrolled at Joe Shoemaker Elementary School, told her he was gay over the summer and that he wanted to come out as such to his classmates when he started school.

"He went to school and said he was gonna tell people he's gay because he's proud of himself," she said."

*******

Instead of explaining to him that he was too young to even know if he was gay.... and knowing fully well how school children react...the mother had no business permitting him to do any such thing.   

The primary blame rests with the parent. The bullying by class mates is a subsequent matter which should have been foreseen in any case.  They were children too.

[Maeght]

The primary blame lies with the bullies. Anything else is victim blaming. The school has a responsibility also. You can say it might have been wise for them to counsel caution from their son, and they may have done, but they are not to blame for what happened.

[Rhiannon]

The primary blame lies with the bullies. Anything else is victim blaming. The school has a responsibility also. You can say it might have been wise for them to counsel caution from their son, and they may have done, but they are not to blame for what happened.

You can blame wider society too.

Find it absolutely heartbreaking.

[Maeght]

You can blame wider society too.

Find it absolutely heartbreaking.

Absolutely.

[Nearly Sane]

You can blame wider society too.

Find it absolutely heartbreaking.

Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,

[Rhiannon]

Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,

Yes, and people who think that parents shouldn't let their child be proud of who they are too.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I don’t know what it was like in that particular school in the US but over here my experience of my 13 year old’s year group is that when she was in Primary school, from what she said, 9 year old girls sounded quite inclusive when it came to sexuality and trans issues, though children still were quite mean to each other about other stuff. It seems to have changed for the better for LGBT issues between the time my 18 year old was in Year 5 and my 13 year old was in Year 5.

When I was 9, some of the children I was at school with in London talked about boyfriends and kissing so Sriram I am not sure why you are surprised that a 9 year old in the US would talk about sexuality. The subject is very high-profile now - you would have to walk around with ear plugs and blinkers to not be aware of it. I blame the bullies.

If the 9 year old did not tell his parents or the school that he was being bullied not sure what they could have done. I think the parents of the children who were doing the bullying should have one of a series of chats with them about how bullying is wrong and to stand up for children who are being bullied or tell a teacher.

Individual children mature differently. If a child declares their identity as  gay, I don’t think there is anything useful to be gained by a parent giving the impression that they need to be ashamed of that by hiding it from people, which is the impression created  if you discourage them from saying anything. You are right to expect bullying and I would have talked to the child every few days about coping mechanisms and responses to bullying. I did that with both my kids, as children can be unkind.

But maybe they did talk to him before he told people at school, and maybe they did say, you are probably going to get bullied by some children who are too immature to deal with diversity - how can we deal with it if it happens? There are many issues children feel insecure about and can be bullied for. It’s impossible to safeguard children completely from their own mind and their own insecurities, especially if they won’t talk no matter how supportive a parent tries to be.

[Rhiannon]

I think it is true that kids will pick on other kids for pretty much anything. Liking soup was one when I was at school. Having red hair still seems acceptable even among adults.

So sad, this story. Poor little lad.

[Harrowby Hall]

While I totally agree with the majority of opinions and sentiments on this thread and condemn the bullying, and suspect that Sriram may be living in a culture whose approaches to sexuality lack the sensitivity and acceptance that most of us now take for granted.

We don't know very much of the culture of Denver, Colorado. Is it heavily Republican? Is it Trump territory? Is it Christian fundamentalist in character? Are there cultural contexts at work here also?

[Nearly Sane]

While I totally agree with the majority of opinions and sentiments on this thread and condemn the bullying, and suspect that Sriram may be living in a culture whose approaches to sexuality lack the sensitivity and acceptance that most of us now take for granted.

We don't know very much of the culture of Denver, Colorado. Is it heavily Republican? Is it Trump territory? Is it Christian fundamentalist in character? Are there cultural contexts at work here also?

Colorado went for Clinton. Denver is the more Democrat area of the state.

[jeremyp]

I have already explained that. 

It all started because a 9 year old, who is in all probability prepubescent, wanted to declare himself gay. His parents allowed him to do that.

For the prevention of going around in circles, can we assume that we all know that. Please answer the questions:

1. How could his parents have stopped him from declaring he is gay?

2. Are you prepared to state for the record that the cause of the boy's suicide was the bullying?

Instead of explaining to him that he was too young to even know if he was gay.... and knowing fully well how school children react...the mother had no business permitting him to do any such thing.

Neither of us know this boy as well as his own parents did. Isn't it time you stopped blaming them and started blaming the bullies?

The primary blame rests with the parent.

No. It doesn't, it rests with the bullies.

[Shaker]

Shaker...Tut...Tut.....you are going to burst a blood vessel if you are not careful.     

I suggest you visit a church and chant some Hail Marys or something. It'll help you calm down. 

Cheers. 

So instead of responding to the points raised or answering the questions put to you, you make a fatuous and inane comment.

What a surprise.

[Shaker]

Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,

Like this?

some people may feel that homosexuality is not...repeat not... a  disease and does not need to be cured!  But I tend to disagree.

[Sriram]

What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! 

I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him.   The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.

Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.

A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do. 

That is my final opinion on this!

Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job!  I appreciate that! 

Cheers.