9 year old suicide

[Maeght]

The primary cause was the bullying.

[Owlswing]

What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! 

I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him.   The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.

Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.

A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do. 

That is my final opinion on this!

Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job!  I appreciate that! 

Cheers.

By the Goddess - I've met some seriously stubborn buggers in my life but you really are a candidate for the Oscar in this case.

Your attitude to homosexuality, in all its multifarious guises, ranks as positively Neolithic!

You are, Sir, a disgrace to 21st Century humanity! I truly hope that you are in a minority of one!

[Nearly Sane]

What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! 

I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him.   The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.

Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.

A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do. 

That is my final opinion on this!

Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job!  I appreciate that! 

Cheers.

Person that thinks homosexuality is a disease to be cured blamed parents for their child being bullied.  And then complains about being bullied for being pulled up on their attitude.

[Shaker]

Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job!  I appreciate that! 

Cheers.

No, I don't keep track; the forum's search function does that. That's what it's there for. That's its purpose.

If you think that revealing your disgusting attitude toward homosexuality by quoting your own words is a matter for thanks, you're patently even more warped than your own comments demonstrate you to be.

[Shaker]

Person that thinks homosexuality is a disease to be cured blamed parents for their child being bullied.  And then complains about being bullied for being pulled up on their attitude.

An irony vacuum indeed.

[Shaker]

Just seen on Twitter:

The people asking if a 9 year old kid can even know that he is gay should be asking how the other 9 year olds already know to bully him for coming out.

[jeremyp]

I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him.   The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.

But it's only your opinion that he is wrong to declare himself gay. Perhaps his parents disagree with you. Even if they were wrong, it's not acceptable to bully somebody, especially to the point where they commit suicide.

Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.

His suicide wouldn't.

[Rhiannon]

As a parent the most important thing is that you let your child know that he or she is loved unconditionally. Out of that comes the need to ensure, as far as you can, that your child feels no shame over who they are. Parents who fail are the ones who tell their kids to shut up, keep quiet, that they are wrong, mistaken, too young to understand. They are the ones who leave their children struggling for self-acceptance well into adulthood.

As Shaker has already alluded to, there are parents to blame here, but they aren't the parents of the boy who died.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! 

I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him.   The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.

Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.

A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do. 

That is my final opinion on this!

Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job!  I appreciate that! 

Cheers.

Ok if that's your final opinion on this.

Presumably the boy was trying to say that he felt attracted to people of the same sex. I find it strange that you think it so strange that a 9 year old could feel attracted to another person.

You make it sound like every parent should expect that their child will get bullied and will kill themselves without talking to someone or asking for help, if they were to come out as gay at school. 

I would expect that there might be the odd person who would have a problem with someone else being different, or there might be someone in the class who bullies others because of their own low self-esteem, but I would not expect the situation to get so out of control that no one at the school picked up on it or the boy himself did not try confiding in an adult rather than taking his own life without saying anything.

Not sure what taking your clothes off has to do with anything - that's against school rules, whereas declaring yourself gay isn't against school rules. Is there any need to actually be gay to declare yourself gay - couldn't someone try it out as an identity for a while? Some young children currently seem to be experimenting with identifying as a different gender from their biological sex. Presumably people can similarly adopt a different racial identity, if that is who they feel they are in their heads, rather than worry about accusations of cultural appropriation.

[Sriram]

Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument.   Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!

If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected.  Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.

Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.

Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?!  Weird! 

There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! 

The stage is all yours...!

[Roses]

Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument.   Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!

If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected.  Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.

Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.

Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?!  Weird! 

There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! 

The stage is all yours...!

You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim.

[Shaker]

It's called victim blaming.

She was pissed/half-dressed/well up for it, your honour etc.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument.   Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!

If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected.  Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.

Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.

Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?!  Weird! 

There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! 

The stage is all yours...!

Why would a parent tell their 9 year old to not say anything and risk them feeling ashamed of being gay? Any mature, sensible parent would realise the potential psychological problems that might produce, and feel it is better that they feel accepted and moreover feel that the school and other parents would try to send the message out that bullying is not ok. I know I certainly spoke to my kids about how bullying is not ok, and moreover, not standing up for other people who are being bullied is also not ok.

Certainly in leafy suburbs of London, I would not normally expect a 9 year old to be bullied to the point where he kills himself if he did declare himself gay at school. He might face a bit of bullying as that happens to children for various reasons, but as a parent you don't expect it to end in suicide without having a clue of anything that has been going on. You usually expect that it will be flagged in school, you would get a phone call, your child would confide in you or start refusing to go to school - you would expect that something would alert you that they are going through some exceptional suffering. As I said before, I have no idea what that particular US school is like, or the kind of expectations parents have.

And your analogy about the alleyway - criminals see dark, secluded places as an opportunity to carry out a crime without getting caught. I don't think parents see schools as something similar to an alleyway. You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner. 

[Shaker]

Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument.

The "argument" began long ago when you vomited up your opinion that being gay is an illness that stands in need of treatment.

P.S. and N.B.: Not remembered by me, but by this forum's search function. Just so you know.

Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!

I wish; but it won't be. It wasn't your "final opinion" on August 31st at 03:27:50pm, so why would this be?

[Sriram]

Why would a parent tell their 9 year old to not say anything and risk them feeling ashamed of being gay? Any mature, sensible parent would realise the potential psychological problems that might produce, and feel it is better that they feel accepted and moreover feel that the school and other parents would try to send the message out that bullying is not ok. I know I certainly spoke to my kids about how bullying is not ok, and moreover, not standing up for other people who are being bullied is also not ok.

Certainly in leafy suburbs of London, I would not normally expect a 9 year old to be bullied to the point where he kills himself if he did declare himself gay at school. He might face a bit of bullying as that happens to children for various reasons, but as a parent you don't expect it to end in suicide without having a clue of anything that has been going on. You usually expect that it will be flagged in school, you would get a phone call, your child would confide in you or start refusing to go to school - you would expect that something would alert you that they are going through some exceptional suffering. As I said before, I have no idea what that particular US school is like, or the kind of expectations parents have.

And your analogy about the alleyway - criminals see dark, secluded places as an opportunity to carry out a crime without getting caught. I don't think parents see schools as something similar to an alleyway. You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner.

"You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner."

Yeah right! Then why did such things happen?

Bullying, sexual abuse by teachers, even shootings...seem to be common in schools.  If we can't face realities and prepare our children accordingly, we have a problem!

You need to prepare children even to attend Church it seems....regardless of what kind of 'broad daylight' you might expect churches to be.

[Shaker]

Well there's so far at least two more "final opinions".

[Shaker]

Yeah right! Then why did such things happen?"

"The people asking if a 9 year old kid can even know that he is gay should be asking how the other 9 year olds already know to bully him for coming out."

Answer came there none.

You need to prepare children even to attend Church it seems.

Hell yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes again.

Given the hellish, life-ruining, life-destroying shit which has happened there since who knows how long*.

* Not the only offenders by any means, but the worst of the mob: ask the Catholics.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim.

Sriram did not say it was acceptable to mug someone wandering down an alleyway at 11pm. He said it was unacceptable. The point he made was that it was something a person could expect to happen. Do you note the difference between the word “accepted” and “expected”?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's called victim blaming.

She was pissed/half-dressed/well up for it, your honour etc.

Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?

[Shaker]

Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?

Me?

No.

Sriram was.

[Rhiannon]

Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?

From Sriram:

You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.

That's victim blaming.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

“Expected” means likely to happen. It doesn’t mean you want it to happen or you were up for it. It just means you recognise the risk but took the risk because different people have different appetites for risk. I was arguing against the idea that the suicide was expected.

As for mistakes, we all make mistakes, especially when it comes to judging risk. Sriram has undoubtedly made lots of mistakes that have had negative consequences- it’s part of our process of learning from our mistakes. His post is therefore irritatingly hypocritical and reflects a poor understanding of how younger parents in other cities in other countries could assess risk differently from an older man in that particular suburb of India. He has no idea of how the situation and conflicting risks appeared to those particular parents.

I certainly disagree with his nonsensical and brutal conclusion that the parents are to blame rather than the bullies. Maybe Sriram still needs to evolve hos ability to argue with compassion on this particular topic. But that could be said of me too and many others on other topics.

[Rhiannon]

No one is saying that anyone wants anything to happen. Sriram is putting the blame on victims, or their families, for behaving 'irresponsibly', when the blame lies elsewhere.

[Shaker]

Sriram has undoubtedly made lots of mistakes that have had negative consequences- it’s part of our process of learning from our mistakes. His post is therefore irritatingly hypocritical and reflects a poor understanding of how younger parents in other cities in other countries could assess risk differently from an older man in that particular suburb of India. He has no idea of how the situation and conflicting risks appeared to those particular parents.

I certainly disagree with his nonsensical and brutal conclusion that the parents are to blame rather than the bullies. Maybe Sriram still needs to evolve hos ability to argue with compassion on this particular topic. But that could be said of me too and many others on other topics.

Albert Schweitzer said that the Africans in Lambaréné were his brothers but that they were his younger brothers.

That seems to fit here.

[Sriram]