9 year old suicide

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No one is saying that anyone wants anything to happen. Sriram is putting the blame on victims, or their families, for behaving 'irresponsibly', when the blame lies elsewhere.

The blame certainly lies with the bullies. Whether these particular  parents behaved responsibly or irresponsibly or simply made a mistake or none of the above - I don’t know as there is no information to make an assessment. For example, we don’t know what discussions took place, thought processes, what they knew about previous incidents of bullying at the school or in that class. My 13 year old daughter says there is not really “bullying” at her school just some people being a bit “snakey”  and no bullying around people coming out, they read books with positive gay characters, so it depends on each school and each child’s experience.

I think the parents expected some bullying but didn’t expect it to be the level it was and thought their son would come to them if he was suffering rather than not ask for help. Or they probably thought they would see signs of distress and would have time to step in and support.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Albert Schweitzer said that the Africans in Lambaréné were his brothers but that they were his younger brothers.

That seems to fit here.

When you quoted me you left out the first sentence of my paragraph where I said we all make mistakes. That would make you the younger brother...

[Rhiannon]

The blame certainly lies with the bullies. Whether these particular  parents behaved responsibly or irresponsibly or simply made a mistake or none of the above - I don’t know as there is no information to make an assessment. For example, we don’t know what discussions took place, thought processes, what they knew about previous incidents of bullying at the school or in that class. My 13 year old daughter says there is not really “bullying” at her school just some people being a bit “snakey”  and no bullying around people coming out, they read books with positive gay characters, so it depends on each school and each child’s experience.

I think the parents expected some bullying but didn’t expect it to be the level it was and thought their son would come to them if he was suffering rather than not ask for help. Or they probably thought they would see signs of distress and would have time to step in and support.

I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.

Such a young life. 

[Roses]

I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.

Such a young life. 

I didn't have a limited understanding of what suicide meant when contemplating it age the of ten. I had played a 'game' of, 'if you show me yours, I will show you mine', with I lad of the same age with whom I used to play. He had told the kids at the school we attended that we had sex, like as if he was capable! I was terrified my parents would find out, that would have been a fate much worse than death. I decided that jumping off the outhouse roof might not kill me, and as I couldn't get onto the much higher roof of our house, I decided to leave it at that and hope for the best. My parent's never did discover my naughty secret, thank goodness.

[SteveH]

You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim.

That's what he said. Try reading what people have written, before coming on with the synthetic indignation.

[jeremyp]

I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.

I think, if he had an understanding of what it means to be gay, we must assume that he also knew what it means to commit suicide.

I don't think that materially affects the story though. This was a tragedy caused by bullies who had acquired the view that being gay makes you fair game for brutality. If there are parents responsible for this, they are not the parents of the boy who died.

[Roses]

That's what he said. Try reading what people have written, before coming on with the synthetic indignation.

He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.

[Shaker]

He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.

Because it's their "mistake", apparently.

[Rhiannon]

I think, if he had an understanding of what it means to be gay, we must assume that he also knew what it means to commit suicide.

I don't think that materially affects the story though. This was a tragedy caused by bullies who had acquired the view that being gay makes you fair game for brutality. If there are parents responsible for this, they are not the parents of the boy who died.

I think the limitation lies largely with how small the world is to a child. Bullying today feels unendurable but it is fixable. That is a perspective that kids don't always have. They can't imagine a time when they are grown and it's all gone away.

There was a terrible story a few year's back about a young boy who argued with his parents and went up to his room. They left him to cool off only to find that he'd hanged himself. No warning, no problems. Distress in the moment rather than a desire to die...I dunno.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.

He said they could blame the muggers all they want but it was the mistake of walking down the alleyway at 11pm, knowing that you could expect to be mugged, that meant you could not avoid being mugged in that alleyway. Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics, because they think they will be able to get away with it or they will be lucky and the potential bad consequences won’t happen to them.

Possibly it’s similar to leaving valuables on display rather than securely locked away. You have every right to do so, and if they were stolen the thief would be to blame, but your insurance company might not pay out on the basis that it was likely to get stolen and you have a responsibility to store it securely. Your mistake would be taken into account.

I disagree that it is to be expected that your son will kill himself if he declares himself gay at age 9.

[jeremyp]

I think the limitation lies largely with how small the world is to a child. Bullying today feels unendurable but it is fixable. That is a perspective that kids don't always have. They can't imagine a time when they are grown and it's all gone away.

There was a terrible story a few year's back about a young boy who argued with his parents and went up to his room. They left him to cool off only to find that he'd hanged himself. No warning, no problems. Distress in the moment rather than a desire to die...I dunno.

Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.

[Rhiannon]

Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.

It's possible. Each case is individual. It's scary for me as a parent. I do have a good relationship with my kids and we talk a lot, but even so.

[jeremyp]

Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics,

The probability of walking down a dark alleyway and getting mugged in the UK is quite low. If you were 100% guaranteed to get mugged, or even 10%, people would never do it and dark alleyways would not be permitted to exist.

[jeremyp]

It's possible. Each case is individual. It's scary for me as a parent. I do have a good relationship with my kids and we talk a lot, but even so.

That's what was so scary about the case I mentioned. The parents would have said the same before they found out that they had a child who was suffering from issues that made them suicidal.

[Rhiannon]

That's what was so scary about the case I mentioned. The parents would have said the same before they found out that they had a child who was suffering from issues that made them suicidal.

We are open about MH and talk about it. I've had to deal with it. Getting off topic, but even if you spot it the support is woeful. I got given a card with a website on it.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The probability of walking down a dark alleyway and getting mugged in the UK is quite low. If you were 100% guaranteed to get mugged, or even 10%, people would never do it and dark alleyways would not be permitted to exist.

The probabilities depend on the individual and the location of the alleyway. And certain people don’t walk down many dark alleyways at 11pm precisely because they think there is a high probability of getting mugged. If you looked like Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson you would probably think there was a far lower probability of being mugged.

I definitely disagree with the other part of your reasoning. Dark alleyways and any other dangerous, crime-ridden spots exist because of lack of resources to prevent crime and anti-social behaviour. People just don’t think about the risks or accept the risk and hope they can take sufficient measures to mitigate it or hope they will be lucky and it won’t happen to them.

[Sriram]

He said they could blame the muggers all they want but it was the mistake of walking down the alleyway at 11pm, knowing that you could expect to be mugged, that meant you could not avoid being mugged in that alleyway. Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics, because they think they will be able to get away with it or they will be lucky and the potential bad consequences won’t happen to them.

Possibly it’s similar to leaving valuables on display rather than securely locked away. You have every right to do so, and if they were stolen the thief would be to blame, but your insurance company might not pay out on the basis that it was likely to get stolen and you have a responsibility to store it securely. Your mistake would be taken into account.

I disagree that it is to be expected that your son will kill himself if he declares himself gay at age 9.

Finally...a word I can agree with......... 'Responsibility'.

Nice!

[jeremyp]

The probabilities depend on the individual and the location of the alleyway. And certain people don’t walk down many dark alleyways at 11pm precisely because they think there is a high probability of getting mugged. If you looked like Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson you would probably think there was a far lower probability of being mugged.

Define "high probability". What percentage of people walking down dark alleyways at night get mugged?

I definitely disagree with the other part of your reasoning. Dark alleyways and any other dangerous, crime-ridden spots exist because of lack of resources to prevent crime and anti-social behaviour. People just don’t think about the risks or accept the risk and hope they can take sufficient measures to mitigate it or hope they will be lucky and it won’t happen to them.

But a dark alleyway where everybody gets mugged would soon be identified and targeted by the law authorities.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.

My 13 year old was in a similar situation. I think she was 12 at the time. We were at a family event and she was constantly on her phone and quite snappy when I told her to stop being anti-social. She only told me later that her friend had texted to say she was depressed and then that she was going to kill herself and stopped texting. My daughter got really worried and texted her friend’s mother to alert her. I got a call from the mother a few days later, who told me measures had been put in place to stop the friend’s tendency to isolate herself and that her daughter was getting some counselling and her smart phone had been confiscated and replaced with a non-smart phone. The mother told me she had read the messages on her daughter’s phone and that I should do the same as some of the conversations between our two daughters were quite intense in talking about depression and it was probably better if they took a step back from their friendship rather than indulge in the dark conversations.

It turned out that both had read 13 Reasons Why and my daughter said she felt in a dark mood after reading it and was unable to shake off those feelings so when her friend messaged her to talk about depression it made her feel depressed too. I had no clue that the book had affected her so much or that her depressed friends confiding in her affected her so much. I didn’t know that quite a few of her friends had self-harmed or attempted suicide  - she had told me but I found it hard to believe and I didn’t think I could exactly bring it up with their parents to ask if it was true.

[Rhiannon]

My 13 year old was in a similar situation. I think she was 12 at the time. We were at a family event and she was constantly on her phone and quite snappy when I told her to stop being anti-social. She only told me later that her friend had texted to say she was depressed and then that she was going to kill herself and stopped texting. My daughter got really worried and texted her friend’s mother to alert her. I got a call from the mother a few days later, who told me measures had been put in place to stop the friend’s tendency to isolate herself and that her daughter was getting some counselling and her smart phone had been confiscated and replaced with a non-smart phone. The mother told me she had read the messages on her daughter’s phone and that I should do the same as some of the conversations between our two daughters were quite intense in talking about depression and it was probably better if they took a step back from their friendship rather than indulge in the dark conversations.

It turned out that both had read 13 Reasons Why and my daughter said she felt in a dark mood after reading it and was unable to shake off those feelings so when her friend messaged her to talk about depression it made her feel depressed too. I had no clue that the book had affected her so much or that her depressed friends confiding in her affected her so much. I didn’t know that quite a few of her friends had self-harmed or attempted suicide  - she had told me but I found it hard to believe and I didn’t think I could exactly bring it up with their parents to ask if it was true.

13 Reasons Why is scary. My daughter hates it because of what it does to young people, although she is old enough to detach from it.  friend of mine found similar messages to the ones you describe on her phone - in this case it was a boy egging her daughter on and it was influenced by music IIRC. There was a young girl killed herself after watching Girl, Interrupted. Scary stuff.

Self harming is incredibly widespread.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Define "high probability". What percentage of people walking down dark alleyways at night get mugged?

I wouldn’t know. Do you have a particular alley way in mind? Wandering around Lambeth at 11pm is a lot more dangerous than wandering around Richmond based on crime statistics but I would have to see the crime statistics for a particular neighbourhood and the number of people wandering around in the neighbourhood at 11pm to get an idea of an actual probability. Decisions about risk also take into account how bad the consequences would be if the event did happen so that might affect the decision someone makes based on their expectations of getting mugged.

But a dark alleyway where everybody gets mugged would soon be identified and targeted by the law authorities.

I would think so.

[NicholasMarks]

Anyone who commits suicide is emotionally very unhappy. We used to protect the emotions of our youngest, but not anymore...we hand it all over to commercialism which thinks every one with a pound/dollar in their pocket is a fair target. Computer games, television, high emotional activity, misleading adverts, soccer team fanaticism, all contribute towards our emotional strength and many have found themselves falling into that emotional black-hole that results in suicide regardless of the weakness or strengths of their reasoning.

The obvious conclusion is that none of us should leave our emotional care to others...especially those that have no family commitment to you...and even these can let you down...I prefer Jesus Christ.

 

[Roses]

Anyone who commits suicide is emotionally very unhappy. We used to protect the emotions of our youngest, but not anymore...we hand it all over to commercialism which thinks every one with a pound/dollar in their pocket is a fair target. Computer games, television, high emotional activity, misleading adverts, soccer team fanaticism, all contribute towards our emotional strength and many have found themselves falling into that emotional black-hole that results in suicide regardless of the weakness or strengths of their reasoning.

The obvious conclusion is that none of us should leave our emotional care to others...especially those that have no family commitment to you...and even these can let you down...I prefer Jesus Christ.

Jesus let me down when I prayed and prayed about the problem I mentioned, I never had any feeling he was around in the ether somewhere.

[NicholasMarks]

Jesus let me down when I prayed and prayed about the problem I mentioned, I never had any feeling he was around in the ether somewhere.

Jesus Christ is my own personal faith...but I don't want to overstate his importance in all our lives here. The Samaritans have a code of conduct which deals with these matters. They know that people on the brink are in great anguish and just allowing the anxious person to express their unsolvable problems gives them a moment to see those problems clearer and a breather from the circular argument that leads only to deeper and deeper despair. Here, in this topic, a young lad with normal or even exaggerated anxieties has had those concerns handled very badly...it is likely that he was bleeding his nervous strength from the much confusion that surrounds us all today and became tormented from school bullying which just added to his emotional mayhem. The thing to realise is that emotional bullying is always the same, inflicted upon others by some very sad individuals who just don't care about others except themselves.

[Rhiannon]

Can't argue there, Nick.