C14 atoms in human cells

[SusanDoris]

My reader has been here this morning  and included in the section she read from 'Living With The Stars' by Karel and Iris Schrijver, it said that about 4,000 Carbon 14 atoms die  in human cells every second. I have no reason to doubt this, but we stopped to wonder how this could have been discovered and measured.

Does anyone here know the answer? Or an approximate one? The book is more than a bit over our heads, but it is absolutely fascinating and we feel we are understanding the overall science of it.

Thank you in hopes.

[Nearly Sane]

Presumably a it's a calculation based on the number of C14 atoms in the human body and the half life of C14 atoms.

[SusanDoris]

Presumably a it's a calculation based on the number of C14 atoms in the human body and the half life of C14 atoms.

Ah, yes, thank you - that sounds very sensible

Interestingly, another point was that carbon dating is far more difficult for recent times because  of the huge increase in fossil fuel burning and nuclear testing in the 1940s and 1950s.

[jeremyp]

it said that about 4,000 Carbon 14 atoms die  in human cells every second.

They don't die, they spontaneously transform into nitrogen by emission of an electron and a neutrino.

How this could have been discovered and measured.

That's a good question. It seems that two researchers made some Carbon-14 using a cyclotron (a particle accelerator) and "watched" it decay with a geiger counter or something like that.

[SusanDoris]

They don't die, they spontaneously transform into nitrogen by emission of an electron and a neutrino.
That's a good question. It seems that two researchers made some Carbon-14 using a cyclotron (a particle accelerator) and "watched" it decay with a geiger counter or something like that.

Many thanks. My reader and I marvel in complete admiration for those who have asked questions, researched and pursued the answers, then dying and leaving the continued pursuit of the answer to the next generation. We have only two chapters to go - then we really ought to go back to the begining and start again! But we won't because there are obviously enough people not inundated with woo who will continue to work towards better and more precise answers. The amount of reading done by the authors, teasing out and collating of information, then presenting it in clear language suitable for the non-scientist to read is amazing enough in itself.

[Anchorman]

I think most bods use a battery of tests to do dating stuff nowadays. C14 was the first real innovation after Petrie perfected stratification through pottery dating - sometimes more art than science but remarkably accurate nonetheless; it became a standard in archaeology and stil remains pretty useful. Dendrochronology, in conjunction with C14 dating when available, can be almost spot on when dealing with wood from the first to nineteenth centuris. Recently, radioflourine dating and thermoluminescence, along with DNA sequencing when dealing with groups of remains, can narrow the dates down. Even so, the further back one goes, the less precise dating can be, till even our best methods are plus or minus a century at 3000 BC.

[SusanDoris]

I think most bods use a battery of tests to do dating stuff nowadays. C14 was the first real innovation after Petrie perfected stratification through pottery dating - sometimes more art than science but remarkably accurate nonetheless; it became a standard in archaeology and stil remains pretty useful. Dendrochronology, in conjunction with C14 dating when available, can be almost spot on when dealing with wood from the first to nineteenth centuris. Recently, radioflourine dating and thermoluminescence, along with DNA sequencing when dealing with groups of remains, can narrow the dates down. Even so, the further back one goes, the less precise dating can be, till even our best methods are plus or minus a century at 3000 BC.

It is all certainly very interesting. One of the facts in the book - and I think I've got this right - is that wwe all have some atoms of C14 which date from thousands of years ago ... but don't quote me on that!!

[jeremyp]

It is all certainly very interesting. One of the facts in the book - and I think I've got this right - is that wwe all have some atoms of C14 which date from thousands of years ago ... but don't quote me on that!!

Well the half life of C14 is nearly 6,000 years. That means, if you had ten atoms in 4,000 BC, you’d still have five atoms now.

[Anchorman]

It is all certainly very interesting. One of the facts in the book - and I think I've got this right - is that wwe all have some atoms of C14 which date from thousands of years ago ... but don't quote me on that!!

True, though - all living things do. C14 dating is basically counting what atoms there are in a smple, doing some maths and coming up with an approximate date....the fewer atoms, the older the sample...but the more imprecise the date - hence the aforementioned other techniques to establish the date of remains. Because, as Jeremyp correctly pointed out, Carbon dating is a bit iffy the further back you go, it needs to be used in conjunction with other methods. Mind you, very recent advances have made radiocarbon dating small samples - only tiny fragments -a lot easier, and more accurate, than they were even a decade ago.

[Anchorman]

Right; I knew this article was wandering down the clogged aarteries of what's left of my mind. This debuts a new way of carbon dating, faster, cheaper, more accurate at microscopic sample level, and probably the greatest advance in the science for decades. If your screenreader can't read it, Susan, I can do a cut-and paste. https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/headline_592683_en.html

[SusanDoris]

Right; I knew this article was wandering down the clogged aarteries of what's left of my mind. This debuts a new way of carbon dating, faster, cheaper, more accurate at microscopic sample level, and probably the greatest advance in the science for decades. If your screenreader can't read it, Susan, I can do a cut-and paste. https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/headline_592683_en.html

Well done, that group of scientists. Very interesting  - voice read it, no problem Thank you for posting the link.