Author Topic: Utilitarianism.  (Read 7704 times)

SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2018, 12:56:49 PM »
No, it doesn't. Utilitarianism is about making decisions for the highest good now, right?
No - you are allowed - indeed, have a duty - to weigh up probable future effects.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2018, 12:58:31 PM »
Steve H,

Quote
No - you are allowed - indeed, have a duty - to weigh up probable future effects.

How?
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SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2018, 01:03:53 PM »
Steve H,

I set out some of the problems with this in Reply 21, which you ignored. It’s not about scepticism at the calculus, it’s that it’s functionally impossible to apply. How for example would you decide whether the smoking ban had increased or decreased net happiness? What metrics would you apply, and how would you compare, say, the total pissedoffness of a smoker who could no longer smoke in his favourite pub against the moderately increased happiness of his three pals who feel slightly better about the ban (but really didn’t care that much anyway) but unhappy that their pal is no longer there? And even if you could do that, how then would you calculate the unhappiness of a smoker who’d later contract lung cancer if there was no ban against his feelings if the ban meant he never got it? And so it goes – endless permutations, no metrics, and no means of establishing these “rules” of yours with any objectivity at all…

…which by the way I seem to recall was your claim over on the other thread re how we could condemn the nazis if there was no objective morality.

So yes, I’m all for more happiness about the place – who wouldn’t be? – but beyond that generalised wish for how I’d like things to be I see no practical means of implementing utilitarianism as the paradigmatic system of ethics, let alone of adducing objective rules to underpin it.
The smoking ban (which I think went too far) was designed to maximise the health of everybody, thus improving present and future happiness, and also make life more comfortable for the people who claim to dislike or be affected by smoky atmospheres. The calculation was that the inconveniencing, and thus decreased happiness, of smokers would be outweighed by the increased happiness of the miserable sods who want everything their way (sorry, a bit of bias creeping in there - I'm a pipe-smoker) and the increased health of the general population. The aim was an increase in happiness, not anything else - better general health is desirable not for its own sake, but because it leads to greater happiness. Yes, it's very hard to calculate, but the point is that happiness, not anything else, was the aim.
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SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2018, 01:06:43 PM »
Steve H,

How?
Difficult, but not impossible. Removing all restrictions on smoking, to continue with that example, including getting rid of health warnings and allowing advertising, would lead to a great increase in lung cancer and other preventable diseases, and a much greater early death rate, and thus a reduction in happiness. It's not as impossible as you make out.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2018, 01:07:19 PM »
No - you are allowed - indeed, have a duty - to weigh up probable future effects.

So it’s about fortune telling then?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2018, 01:09:42 PM »
Difficult, but not impossible. Removing all restrictions on smoking, to continue with that example, including getting rid of health warnings and allowing advertising, would lead to a great increase in lung cancer and other preventable diseases, and a much greater early death rate, and thus a reduction in happiness. It's not as impossible as you make out.
What's the weight of 1 death?

SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2018, 01:14:04 PM »
So it’s about fortune telling then?
No, it's about weighing up probable future events. If, for example, we removed all speed limits, even in towns, and removed the legal requirement to wear seat-belts and the ban on drink-driving, it doesn't take a fortune-teller to predict that the death toll on the roads would rise dramatically.
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Enki

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2018, 01:31:49 PM »
How about the idea of a society where the ruling 70% decide to keep the other 30% in benign slavery, because it gives them increased happiness, whereas the 30% are certainly not as happy? Is this an acceptable use of utilitarianism? Who gets to decide whether the happiness of the 70% trumps the misery of the 30% in slavery?
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SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2018, 01:34:58 PM »
I give up.  ::)  ::)  ::)
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2018, 01:38:36 PM »
I give up.  ::)  ::)  ::)
Now I'm happy!
 ;)
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2018, 01:41:17 PM »
How about the idea of a society where the ruling 70% decide to keep the other 30% in benign slavery, because it gives them increased happiness, whereas the 30% are certainly not as happy? Is this an acceptable use of utilitarianism? Who gets to decide whether the happiness of the 70% trumps the misery of the 30% in slavery?
It may help instead of using the term happiness, we use a more common term in consequential moral systems, that of well being. In this case the well being of the 30% could be seen as overwhelming the 70%. Further I would suggest that if we remove the ism and see it as a tool rather than a theory of ethics, then most of us something approaching the greatest well being for the greatest number as a rule of thumb as part of how we evaluate ethical choices.

ekim

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2018, 01:42:41 PM »
Yes, people sometimes want to avoid happiness, joy, call it what you will, because they know that it won't last and therefore don't want to feel the kinds of things that will make the bad times feel worse. Better to feel nothing - avoidant personality.

That reminds me of a time long ago when radiotherapy treatment was quite primitive compared with now.  It knocked out all my senses of taste except bitter and I found myself seeking out bitter food because it was better to taste something rather than nothing.  Perhaps for some people it is better to experience or dwell upon emotional bitterness rather than deadness or nothing at all.  When you look at how weighted the news is in favour of presenting tragedy and misery, there is plenty of scope for feeding this emotion.

ekim

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2018, 01:49:24 PM »
It may help instead of using the term happiness, we use a more common term in consequential moral systems, that of well being. In this case the well being of the 30% could be seen as overwhelming the 70%. Further I would suggest that if we remove the ism and see it as a tool rather than a theory of ethics, then most of us something approaching the greatest well being for the greatest number as a rule of thumb as part of how we evaluate ethical choices.
Cue the welfare state?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2018, 01:56:02 PM »
Cue the welfare state?
Or possibly not. Perfectly reasonable to argue that the welfare state maintains people in a miserable state rather than giving them freedom. Which is one of the reasons I think declaring you are a utilitarian is not that meaningful. Even allowing for imperfect knowledge, the calculus part is just about your own determination of the what things are worth.

Enki

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2018, 01:56:18 PM »
It may help instead of using the term happiness, we use a more common term in consequential moral systems, that of well being. In this case the well being of the 30% could be seen as overwhelming the 70%. Further I would suggest that if we remove the ism and see it as a tool rather than a theory of ethics, then most of us something approaching the greatest well being for the greatest number as a rule of thumb as part of how we evaluate ethical choices.

I would agree. My term would be human flourishing. I was of course referring to ancient Greek society. It is interesting though that they did have very different moral precepts to ours.
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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2018, 02:01:32 PM »
I would agree. My term would be human flourishing. I was of course referring to ancient Greek society. It is interesting though that they did have very different moral precepts to ours.
This triggers the question of who is in the 'number'. The ancient Greek democracies worked on limited male suffrage - No women voting. Bentham was for his time quite enlightened as regards women, though there are some comments which would not be seen as acceptable now, and as regards non human animals

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2018, 02:31:38 PM »
Steve H,

Quote
The smoking ban (which I think went too far) was designed to maximise the health of everybody, thus improving present and future happiness, and also make life more comfortable for the people who claim to dislike or be affected by smoky atmospheres. The calculation was that the inconveniencing, and thus decreased happiness, of smokers would be outweighed by the increased happiness of the miserable sods who want everything their way (sorry, a bit of bias creeping in there - I'm a pipe-smoker) and the increased health of the general population. The aim was an increase in happiness, not anything else - better general health is desirable not for its own sake, but because it leads to greater happiness. Yes, it's very hard to calculate, but the point is that happiness, not anything else, was the aim.

Yes, I know what the aim was as and I’m happy to agree with it. What though if the aim and the effect are different – if the road to hell is in fact paved with good intentions? Take the smoking ban still – let’s say that because of it a number of people will not now die of lung cancer and will instead live to ripe old ages, More happiness right? But let’s say too that in old age they’ll require a substantially increased amount of state geriatric support that requires funding to be withdrawn from, say, children’s services thereby increasing the unhappiness of a different number of people. How would you propose even to identify the untended consequences of the ban, let alone to weigh their net effects against an overall happiness scale?

Again, to be clear I’m all for the smoking ban and for that matter for other measures that to the best of our ability to compute these things increase the net amount of happiness there is. It’s still the case though that as a practical tool for ethical behaviour to call it problematic would be an understatement. At heart ethics is subjective, messy, changeable and not objective and fixed by inviolable rules at all.     

Quote
Difficult, but not impossible. Removing all restrictions on smoking, to continue with that example, including getting rid of health warnings and allowing advertising, would lead to a great increase in lung cancer and other preventable diseases, and a much greater early death rate, and thus a reduction in happiness. It's not as impossible as you make out.

Yet it is – see above. Your problem here is the interconnectedness of events – we might be able to foresee, say, ten consequences from an action or maybe more. What we can’t do though is to foresee all of them because life is far too complex for that. Try reading about the unintended effect of banning agent orange for example, itself an act whose aim was entirely benign but that arguably actually cost countless lives.
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SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2018, 02:38:09 PM »
This triggers the question of who is in the 'number'. The ancient Greek democracies worked on limited male suffrage - No women voting. Bentham was for his time quite enlightened as regards women, though there are some comments which would not be seen as acceptable now, and as regards non human animals
Dunno what you mean by those last words: Bentham was one of the first to realise that animals might have feelings to be taken into consideration, and to propose that they should be treated kindly. From 'An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation', by J.B., chapter XIX, section i:
Quote
The day may come, when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withdrawn from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may come one day to be recognised, that the number of the legs, the viliosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the inseparable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal than any infant of a day, a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 02:42:04 PM by Steve H »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2018, 02:40:47 PM »
I had hoped that the commas would make clear that as regards non human animals, he was quite enlightened for the time

SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2018, 02:44:28 PM »
Ah - yes. See what you mean, As you were.
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Udayana

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2018, 10:04:37 PM »
Steve H,
...

... Try reading about the unintended effect of banning agent orange for example, itself an act whose aim was entirely benign but that arguably actually cost countless lives.

Sorry Blue, probably off-topic, but didn't get this -  do you have a link or ref? 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2018, 09:59:46 AM »
Udayana,

Quote
Sorry Blue, probably off-topic, but didn't get this -  do you have a link or ref?

Oops, my bad (as da yoof apparently say). I was having a senior moment there as I meant to say DDT rather than agent orange. The argument is that countless people who died from malaria would otherwise have survived but for the ban on the (comparatively harmless) pesticide DDT. Since then the tide has been turned back somewhat at least by people who argue that DDT is still used as a pesticide in some countries. The point though remains that unintended consequences can be a killer. Sorry for the confusion   
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SteveH

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2018, 10:01:40 AM »
I believe that there is anexception to the ban for malaria-control purposes.
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Udayana

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2018, 11:13:41 AM »
Udayana,

Oops, my bad (as da yoof apparently say). I was having a senior moment there as I meant to say DDT rather than agent orange. The argument is that countless people who died from malaria would otherwise have survived but for the ban on the (comparatively harmless) pesticide DDT. Since then the tide has been turned back somewhat at least by people who argue that DDT is still used as a pesticide in some countries. The point though remains that unintended consequences can be a killer. Sorry for the confusion   

Ah, Ok.

Certainly we never really know the ultimate consequences of our actions, and with the understanding that our desires and decisions are determined (no free will) one begins to feel that life is a show, put on to grab and fling our emotions back and forth.

Surprised that no-one  has brought up the trolley experiment. Utilitarians can calculate that flinging one person under the trolley to prevent the deaths of five is better, more moral, but what action do you take in the situation itself? Push the innocent bystander or let physics take it's course? Maybe sacrifice yourself (not usually possible)?
 
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Rhiannon

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Re: Utilitarianism.
« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2018, 11:36:52 AM »
Ah, Ok.

Certainly we never really know the ultimate consequences of our actions, and with the understanding that our desires and decisions are determined (no free will) one begins to feel that life is a show, put on to grab and fling our emotions back and forth.

Surprised that no-one  has brought up the trolley experiment. Utilitarians can calculate that flinging one person under the trolley to prevent the deaths of five is better, more moral, but what action do you take in the situation itself? Push the innocent bystander or let physics take it's course? Maybe sacrifice yourself (not usually possible)?

Nice little piece by Oliver Burkemann on this.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jun/22/hypothetical-thinking-pale-imitation-real-life